1 Corinthians 15:28 - Jesus Subject to the Father?
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The Big Question?
I’ve spent tons of hours reading and studying scripture and anything and everything I could find on the internet, commentaries, etc. to help me understand and reconcile the subjection of the Son to the Father found in 1 Cor 15:27-28:
- “For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
I happen to believe Jesus IS God. I believe He was God in the flesh, known as the Son of God/Son of Man, because He was born of a human mother. The root of His name, Jesus, is Hebrew, Yehowshuwa, meaning YHWH Saves. Through the Son, God made the Way (John 14:6), the Gate/Door (John 10:7) for man to be reconciled back to Him, so that one day the world will be as it was in the beginning, before the fall of Adam and Eve: God and man in perfect union.
While the Bible states, “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” (1 Cor 15:25) this indicates there will be an end to the reign of Christ, when indeed the majority of scholars believe this is speaking of His office as ‘Mediator’, which will no longer be needed after all things are put into subjection under Him; the last enemy to be destroyed is death (physical and spiritual) – vs. 26. There are far too many passages that state clearly that Jesus' kingdom, the kingdom of God, will never end (Luke 1:33; Rev 7:15).
I believe Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). The Bible tells us God is Spirit (John 4:24). The Bible says no man has seen God (1 John 4:12). Jesus, while in the flesh, revealed God to us in His very nature; therefore, to see Jesus was to see the Father.
- John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
- John 14:9 “Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
One, Two or Three?
I stopped believing in a ‘trinity’, for if God was indeed three separate persons, the Father would be the first person, the Son the second and the Holy Spirit the third. Since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, the third person of the trinity would then be His ‘father’, not the first person of the trinity. "God in three persons; blessed Trinity" is not in the Bible, but in a hymn written in the 18th century by a Catholic priest.
Looking back at the Old Testament, God said we were not to worship any other god besides Him (Ex 20:3-5), so to worship Jesus as another ‘god’ would be sin. God said there is “no Savior besides Me” (Is 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4), so to accept Jesus as the Savior, but not accept Him as the LORD God Himself, would be sin.
How is it then, that 1 Cor 15:28 states “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all"? Compare this with Col 3:11 “a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.”
Manifestations of God
We know that God manifested Himself in many forms in the Old Testament:
Adam and Eve heard the sound of Him walking in the garden (Gen 3:8). This would indicate God had legs.
Hagar saw the Angel of the LORD, the LORD God (Gen 16:13)
The LORD God appeared to Abraham as a man with two of his angels, also in human form (Gen 18:2; 19:1).
God appeared to Jacob as a man and wrestled with him all night (Gen 32:24, 28, 30). Do you find it interesting that Jacob said he had 'seen God' in vs. 30?
God appeared to Moses as the ‘Angel of the LORD’ in the burning bush to give him the commandments (Ex 3:2). Compare this to Jesus’ statement to “Keep My commandments” in John 14:15.
God stood on the rock at Horeb that gave water to the Israelites in Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4 tells us that rock was Christ.
God later appeared to Moses to give him the second set of commandments, and yet Moses was not to look upon His form (Ex 33:23).
God appeared as clouds by day and fire by night to the Israelites (Num 14:14).
God appeared as the Angel of the LORD to Joshua (Josh 5:13; 6:2)
Go appeared as the Angel of the LORD to Gideon (Jud 6:11, 14)
God appeared to Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson in Jud 13 (vs. 22).
Isaiah saw the King, the LORD of hosts (Isa 6:1-5; compare to Rev 4:8)
In addition to these examples, The Old Testament states that God has:
Eyes: Amos 9:8.
Ears: Isa 5:9; 59:1; Jam 5:4.
Nose: Job 4:9; Isa 65:5.
Mouth: Is 1:20; Micah 4:4; Mat 4:4; Job 40:9.
Voice: Ex 19:19.
Face: Gen 19:13; 1 Sam 26:20.
Arms and hands: Job 40:9; Ps 44:3; 77:15; 89:10, 21;136:12; Jer 21:5.
Finger: Ex 8:19; 31:18; Deut 9:10; Luke 11:20.
Feet: Nahum 1:3; Zech 14:4; Rev 1:15-16.
Inward parts: Isa 16:11.
Speaking of the finger of God, His finger wrote the first set of the 10 Commandments (Deut 9:10). Yet, in Luke 11:20 Jesus stated He cast out demons by the finger of God.
The Jews, the 'first-born son of God' (Ex 4:22; Jer 31:9), were around much longer than the 'trinity' doctrine. They knew God as Father, knew His Spirit and witnessed Him in the form of man (to Abraham and Jacob) and the word 'Elohim' had been around since Genesis 1:1; never did they split God into persons. NEVER. Why does the last church age do this? Look up Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus and the Johannine Comma (how it was inserted into the Latin Textus Receptus from which all our Bibles are translated) to give you a clue.
Bottom line is, any manifestation of God is His Christ (Acts 3:18; 4:26; Rev 11:15; 12:10), aka Jesus, or His Angel (Gen 3:8; Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14; 13:21-22), aka Jesus. Even the rock at Horeb was His Christ (Ex 17:6; 1 Cor 10:4), aka Jesus. Likewise, in the New Testament the flesh and blood of the Son was God with us, Immanuel (Mat 1:23) ~ Jesus (Mat 1:21). Isaiah said the son (flesh) is Mighty God [El] and Everlasting Father (Is 9:6) ~ He is the Great "I AM".
The Resurrected Jesus, the Christ
Because we know flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50), any appearance of God in the Old Testament would not have included carnal flesh and blood. However, He chose to be born through the virgin Mary, in order to shed His holy blood for our sins. Several of the original disciples/apostles referred to Jesus as “God and Savior” (1 Tim 1:1; Tit 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1). The prophets called the LORD God ‘God and Savior’ (Is 45:15; Mic 7:7). Also, read many more passages, such as 1 Chr 16:35, Ps 65:5; Hab 3:18 ~ so many.
After His resurrection, Jesus appeared in the very body He died in (flesh and bone). Yet, He appeared in the locked upper room with His disciples twice (went through walls?), and appeared in ‘another form’, too (Mark 16:12). Is this not consistent with God? What happened to the body in which He was resurrected while He appeared in 'another form'? Only God can do this! We are told that our bodies will be changed upon the ‘catching up’ or rapture, and that our resurrected bodies will not corrupt or perish (1 Cor 15:52). Our new bodies will not be ‘flesh and blood’, else it would contradict 1 Cor 15:50.
Speaking of His resurrection, we know Jesus, the Christ of God appeared to His disciples, walking on the waves of the sea (Mat 14:24-25). Now, let's go back to Job 9:8 to see what is said about God: "Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea."
God: The King of kings, the LORD of Lords
Okay, back to the ‘submission of Christ’ to ‘the Father’. The Bible tells us Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1), that through Him all things were created (John 1:3 ~ that would include man), that He is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15) and that He is submissive to the Father (John 14:10-11 and of course, 1 Cor 15:28). I know I wondered how the Spirit of God [El] could make man (Job 33:4), but now that I understand He has a form in Christ, I don’t have questions.
Basically, just as our bodies perform what is in our mind, will and emotions, God’s soul (Is 42:1; Heb 10:38), Spirit (Luke 23:46; John 4:24), mind (Is 43:25; Rom 8:27), heart (Ez 28:2, 6) and voice (Zeph 3:17; John 1:1) is manifest in the person of Jesus Christ (KJV - Job 13:8; Heb 1:3). He submits to the will of the Father, for the Father (the Holy Spirit) is in Him and He in the Father (the Holy Spirit). After the last enemy of death and all evil forces are destroyed, we the saints will see God in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus will rule as the King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev 19:13-16), yet we will reign with Him.
- 1 Tim 6:15 “God, the blessed and only Ruler [Sovereign; Potentate], the King of kings and Lord of lords”
- Rev 5:10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Jesus' subjection to the Father is to think and do the will of the Father (the Holy Spirit) in Him (John 12:49; 14:10; 1 Cor 2:11). Likewise, the Spirit in us will give eternal life to our new bodies and we will do the will of Him in us!! (Rom 8:11; John 3:18). Thus, we will be back to the way it was in the beginning: God and man. We will see and communicate with God in the person of Jesus Christ.
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Flip-Side
Now, in my studies I considered a ‘flip side’ to this coin. The main reason is not only what the scriptures reveal, but the current office of 'Mediator' indicates submission to the Father (the Holy Spirit) even now, so when that office ends, a future subjection doesn't seem to reconcile. When I thought further about this present 'mediation', I pondered how the Spirit of Christ (God) intercedes for us while we are yet in sinful flesh (Heb 7:25). The answer: in us and through us (Rom 8:26; 1 Tim 2:1; ponder 2 Sam 2:25). Truly, this 'mediation' will no longer be needed when sinful flesh and the Adversary no longer exist.
The Bible says that everything is already subject to Christ (Mat 28:18; 1 Pet 3:22).
To give you a hint of the 'flip side', consider that God placed everything under the feet of man in the beginning (before the fall). If you read Gen 1:28, Dan 7:13-14 interpreted in 22, 26-27, Ps 8:4-9 and Heb 2:5-9 this might shed more ‘Light’ on the subject.
Lastly, compare the following two passages (1 Cor 15:27-28 and Rev 21:7):
1 Cor 15:27-28 “For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son [huios] also himself [autos] be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” I have added capitalization to this KVJ passage, to see more clearly what the flip-side is.
The word 'Son' is indeed capitalized, even in the KJV. That denotes divinity. In our resurrected state, we shall be immortal and divine. Now, notice the English words ‘Son’ and ‘himself’ are the Greek words “huios” and “autos”. Now, look at Rev 21:7 (spoken by Christ Jesus): ”He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he [autos] shall be my son [huios].“ This is speaking of the saints. It is really important to read Daniels vision in 7:13-14 and the interpretation given by the angel in vs. 22, 26-27. It is clear that the 'Son of Man' represented/represents the "saints of the Most High".
I could write an entire hub on the ‘flip side’, which would basically conclude that Christ intends to put all things under the feet of man again; however, not all things are yet put under man’s authority (due to the existence of the sinful flesh and the Adversary). All things being subject to man would exclude Christ, who put all things under him. When the grave is overcome, evil is disposed of, and all things are finally subject to the saints (we who overcome, who are the ‘son’ mentioned in Rev 21:7), we will be fully subject to Christ so that He may be all in all.
Again, let me leave you with Col 3:11 “a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.”
- Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS!
Who is GOD? WOW. What a concept to try to wrap our human brains around! Ive read all kinds of interpretations of the trinity and some of the scriptures cause confusion as to exactly how we are to interpret the entity of God Himself.
- Soul, Spirit, Mind and Heart
Man is fearfully and wonderfully made in Gods image! God has a soul, spirit, mind and heart, just like we do! Only our Creator can powerfully minister to each separately and yet bring wholeness within us because of Jesus Christ.
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You are a breath of fresh air, brother fred allen. Thank you. I don't know if the Lord will have me write a hub on the 'flip side', as I am still waiting on His direction. I have some tough questions in my spirit, but with the Holy Spirit as my Teacher, I subject my will to His and hope to have the courage to share what I feel is revealed. I revere Him and take what is written as interpretation with that reverence. God bless you, and thank you again.
Voted up, useful, awesome, and beautiful! Another truly great hub has proceeded from your pen onto the pages of my mind; inspired without question by the Holy Spirit, for the edification of the Children of the Light.
We are the body. Christ is the Head. All things will be put under our feet, not Him, but all things physical will be placed under our feet. Then all things will be subjected to Him through us!
Oh, the wonder of it all, how His wisdom rules far and above anything we could ever dream in this life.
I really enjoy your hubs, my friend. May God continue to bless you and to fill you with His wisdom and desire to share with others the truths of His Word.
I enjoyed hearing your flip side. Some very interesting things to ponder. Some I have not heard of. The trinity one I will have to give some thought.
You present your scriptural backings well. I am times used to hearing things how they have always been taught and always also want to remain faithful to the truth not simply because that is what I was taught but because that is what the scriptures teach. I will be pondering this further.
I also really liked how you showed the manifestations of God in the Old Testament as "His Christ"
Good presentation.
Keep up the fine work and "let not your heart be troubled" by the things we do not yet understand in the "divine mystery" of it all. I am thankful for the things that have been reveled to me through the spirit and patient to understand those things that have not been completely clear yet. Fortunately the Word of God will work in us these things at their appointed time and all things will ultimately be revealed in the end. The main thing is to get as many of us there to the Kingdom that we may all revel in these mysteries as one united family together.
With blessings...Rev.Ted
Read this earlier today but wasn't sure what to say. I do know that when I saw the title a thought came to me. Our words are suject to us. God's Word is subject to Him. I also noticed that you touched on that point later in the article.
Not sure about the flip side yet, but I am pondering it. Way to keep us pondering and meditating on the Word.
JD: You may have already read the book "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn, and I may not be tuned into the question you are seeking to pose, but thought I'd mention what Randy writes.
"By rebelling against the King of kings, mankind abdicated dominion over the earth. But Christ will restore us to the throne occupied so briefly by Adam and Eve...Luke 12:32." May his kingdom come so that his will is done on earth as it is done in heaven!
Also, "Paul says that Christ 'gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present age' (Gal 1:4). Not all worlds and all ages are evil, but only this world in this present age. When Jesus calls Satan 'the prince of this world' (Jhn 14:30, 16:11) and Paul calls Satan 'the god of this age' (2Co 4:4), it's a relative and temporary designation. God is still God over the univers, still sovereign over Earth and over Satan. But the devil is the usurper who has tried to steal Earth's throne from man, God's delegated king of the earth. In his time, God will take back teh throne, as the God-man Jesus Christ, at last restoring and raising Earth....
"Revelation isn't primarily a book about the Antichrist or the Tribulation; it's a book about God reigning. He reigns over the fallen universe now, and he will reign uncontested over the new universe, with mankind reigning by his side." Mat 5:3, 5, 10.
Hallelujah! God has shown you that there are no Three Persons in Him. Continue to pray and search and there will be more revelations. God bless.
Brother Jachda!! (I am assuming you are a brother and not a sister, but forgive me if I'm incorrect...I don't know the 'gender' of 'Jachda'). I am sooooo very happy you came to read my ponderings on this very deep subject on 'subjection' ~ I suppose my thoughts were quite 'subjective', as well :). YOU are such a blessing to me. I know you've searched out God with all your strength and have read His Word from first page to last in many translations; you know it and in its type-set alone the mysteries of God are not revealed to those who merely read and do not yeild to the life within those words. In this, it is proof that He is alive and lives within our hearts. May our God and Savior, Jesus Christ be praised forever. Luv U in His everlasting love!!
Ah, dear sister Tamarajo! I am blessed that you came to read and I know you are one who also loves the Word and studies it with all your heart ~ what you write is such a revelation and blessing to all who read, and I want to thank you and encourage you to keep it up!! What a LIGHT! I trust fully the testing of the saints, you being one of them, and I am rejoicing in my spirit that when we begin to ask and then study...and we KNOW the Lord and He KNOWS us, the Truth will be KNOWN. God knows I've been pondering this for months, and it was finally time I wrote to see what God would have me put together. I pray it is a blessing and brings life to all who read. God bless you always!!!
Thank you and yours so much, christ4ever ~ yes, I'm kind of like a 'dog on a bone' when it comes to my questions and searching for more of God. He certainly said we will NEVER go hungry or thirsty, for there is not enough days in life to grasp all that we will one day revel in. We have but a 'taste' of His awesome wonders now, and I'm lovin' every minute of it. That's what I love about writing ~ it is therapeutic and somewhat 'captures' that 'taste', in order to share it with the saints [potluck anyone?]. May we sit as His table and give Him thanks forever. God bless you!!
Hi brother, SirDent! You're so much like me ~ in that you'll read something, chew on it, then come back...This shows you are teachable and do ponder on the Word. I have such a smile on my face :) I like your thoughts about the Word, in that "the tongue has the power of life and death" (Prov 18:21) and truly, the LORD Jesus will slay His enemies with the sword of His mouth (Rev 2:16; 19:21). Hallelujah! You are always a blessing to me. Thanks so much for reading and commenting. God bless you, too!!
My dear sister, Ms Dee! In all my research I did not come across the text of "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn! This is what I love about the family of God ~ we help teach each other, confirm what the Lord says, and unite in His truth and love. Thank you so much!! What a confirmation ~ I can't wait to get the book. In fact, I'll see if I can put an Amazon link to it here in this hub to bless the author for blessing us. One thing I know about you, as is evident in your awesome hubs, is that you are one who loves to study and learn...and are so willing to share with others. God is so good; amen!! I appreciate you so much!! God bless!!!
Hi sister einron! What a blessing to have yet another faithful student of the Word and sister in Christ come to read and confirm that God is One, not three; amen! And, isn't it amazing that Christians, the saved saints all over the world, agree on this without belonging to the known 'cults' that, while they state the 'trinity' is false, they don't believe Jesus is God; or, they claim that Jesus is God, but there are three separate persons of flesh and bone in the 'Godhead', (which really means 'Deity', not plurality). Let His children not miss the mark, for if it be God's will that we know Him, the One True God, we will know Him (1 John 5:20). "Lift the veil for the blind, Lord and let Your children continue to see more of You" (2 Cor 3:13-15). God bless you, sister.
Enjoyed reading all the responses back an forth this has generated :). Neat that you are getting the book "Heaven" - it is an amazing work! I think you'll love it! Yes, I've run into a number of the younger generation who find the Trinity doctrine more confusing than helpful ... as you explained so well in the above it has taken on unscriptural meanings and become misleading.
Thought I'd also pass on to you what my commentaries say: "In terms of being the eternal Logos, he continues his dominion as God over all creation. As Son he may be officially subordinate while remaining coequal with the Father. He is subordinate in relation to his work of redeeming man, not in his essential being."
Hi Ms Dee ~ so many commentaries {interpretation of latter-day man} are based on the 'trinity' doctrine, using words such as 'remaining coequal with the Father' (people may understand this to mean TWO); however, the Spirit cuts through this doctrine, which seed is rooted in the Catholic church. In the third century, Catholicism became a 'giant' and centuries later, multiple martyrs gave their lives to get the Bible into the hands of the people, so they would not continue to be deceived. However, many of the 'Protestants', who broke away from the Catholic church carried the 'trinity' doctrine with them. It's understandable, due to the fact that Erasmus (a Catholic priest) inserted the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) into the Textus Receptus (Latin), from which our Bibles were translated, in the 15th century. The beloved KJV was translated from it in the early 16th century.
For more on this, you might be interested in my hub "ROCK OF OFFENSE":
http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/ROCK-of-OFFE
Even Mat 28:19 didn't include anything about baptism in the original text, let alone the name (singlular ~ clue) "of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". It simply stated, "Go and make disciples of [teach] all nations in My name."
Can't wait to get the book 'Heaven'. Thanks for the recommendation, and God bless you!!
Ohhhh, now I get what you're saying. Thanks for explaining more so I can tune in better. Great! I'll go read your other hub you refer to - appreciate that suggestion. Very interested in this point you are making. :)
Yes, as I was driving to work this morning I thought about what 'co' means...co-ed, co-dependent, etc. It means 'two', as 'bi' does. The Bible never uses "co-equal" with reference to God in the flesh, but plain "equality" meaning an orange = orange. Two oranges = two oranges. If the two oranges are 'equal' in size, it is the size that is the same (exact), not the oranges (one may have seeds, the other may not). Like when Pharaoh had two dreams and Joseph said they were 'one', he meant the two dreams have the exact same meaning, one meaning ~ feast and famine (Gen 41:26). So much neat stuff...God is so good to drive to work with me every morning :-) Bless you!!
:) Isn't it amazing how different parts of the Scriptures relate to other parts that were written down hundreds/thousands of years apart in different times!
It is amazing ~ we have an AMAZING GOD! I hope you'll listen to a song I just absolutely love ~ I enter into beautiful worship as I listen and ponder ~ my eyes always water...tears....it's just so beautiful, when we know our God and Savior. Here's the link, and I pray YOU are highly blessed in His presence, sister Dee :-)
Thanks for the song, I will! Good to hear you continue to have work to drive to :)
Yes and amen! Another temp six-month position, but it's a walk of faith and God has been so faithful (2 Tim 2:13). These trials cause me to put this faith into practice. I remember praying the request of the Lord's disciples, "Lord, increase our faith" (Luke 17:5) and I know that there is a spiritual "gift of faith" as well (1 Cor 12:9). Oh, we'd better be ready when we pray the will of God, for what a JOY it is to know what is given to me is not of myself whatsoever (John 3:27). I will thank Him and praise Him for keeping me in His care (Mat 6:26). God bless you, too!!!
You know what, sister Dee? I thought the following video link regarding the Textus Receptus was in the hub "ROCK of OFFENSE", but it's actually in my hub "THREE That Bear Record? (Mat 29:19 & 1 John 5:7)". This youtube video really sums it up well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chn6WoP5NWQ
For any and all who want to know ~ test it and let God move in your hearts...
I believe that Jesus and God are two separate entities but one in the same and I think that even with the Scriptures we as humans will never reaaly grasp the truth but the Scriptures are our guide to getting closer to the Holy One and He tells us how to do just that He tells how to live our lives and the most important thing is that if you believe in and love Him with all your heart and soul you will never die.As humans we have question that the maybe only Goid Himself has the answers to.But for now time is short and I think we all need to focus on getting ourselves right with the Father because He is coming soon.
Hi wheatbaybay, Jesus is the image of the Spirit, Who is God ~ the One True God, so in that sense it sharpens the focus of your statement, "I believe Jesus and God are two separate entities". Or, do you think the Father has a form and Jesus has a form? Do you think you'll see THEM side-by-side? Did you know that the term 'right hand' is symbolic of power and not literal?
We've got those who believe God is the Father, the Spirit is the Mother and the offspring of both is the Son. We've got those who believe God is the Father, while Jesus and the Holy Spirit are our brothers. Then we have those who believe in the Father and the Son, two entities side-by-side, and the Spirit is an 'it'; and, of course, those who only acknowledge the Father as God, with Jesus as a lesser 'god' or angel. I can't imagine having to decide who to pray to: the Father? Jesus? Maybe the Sprit? I'm not Catholic, but they'll throw in a few saints, too. I can only imagine God shaking His head and rolling His eyes a bit...
I think the question Jesus asked Peter was quite important: "Who do you say that I am?" Indeed, everyone focuses on the wording of Mat 16:16 "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", but check out Mark 8:29 and Luke 9:20 (in light of this hub): "Peter answering said, The Christ of God." In 2 Pet 1:1 Peter called Jesus "God and Savior". I pray the Lord will confirm His truth to His kids, that we come to know the fullness of Him.
J/D Hey my Sister in Christ Jesus. Yes some people have trouble but I was Blessed to be shown and to have been given understanding when I was saved the Lord opened my eyes to this and I shared it with a Older Lady at the Time I was around 26 and she was in her sixties. And I told her of a Vision or a Dream I know not. I had seen as Jesus was standing in front of me I could see the Great White Throne over His shoulder where I saw The Spirit of God upon that Throne. But it was like the Scripture says we must go though the Son to get to the Father. Amen
When Jesus spoke about His visit with Abraham and that He was Glad to see Him.
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57-59 (King James Version)
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
It is Amazing how much our Lord was hated but we all were guilty until we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. Amen
Hi brother Leroy ~ I think your vision aligns with Rev 14:14-16, the picture within this hub. However, it does not mean the cloud (Spirit) is the Father and Jesus is separate from the Father (Spirit). In other words, if we don't acknowledge Jesus, we do not acknowledge the Father, for He is ONE in the same God. There is no way to reject Jesus and get 'to' the Father. He is the Father and the 'cloud' (Spirit) is His glory ~ omnipresent ~ life-giving; Jesus is His image that we can 'see' and communicate with.
All the passages in Revelation where we read about the singular throne of 'God and the Lamb', it is this vision. The word 'and' comes from G2532 'kai' meaning 'and, also, even' ("God, also the Lamb"; "God, even the Lamb") ~ and yet, when we read "God and the Lamb", the English word chosen to translate 'kai', we imagine two, when there is only One God.
I hope that is understandable ~ Luv U Lots, brother!
J/D My Sister in Christ, I hope that anyone who has any concerns must realize that the Word of God is the Bible and that Jesus is the Word. I wanted to share so many verse's with you and your readers that have always given me Peace and understanding from the Word even without the two verse's that you have found who the author said is a lie and is sin against God. I have believed in the Holy Trinity without those two verses and as He said is the only proof of this theory in the Bible. Hear is one link that I hope will help all. May God Bless you and keep you and may His Face Shine upon You.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tLDU6v3V60
Listen and watch and let the Lord our God Speak to your Hearts. Amen
Hi brother Leroy, I was raised with the 'trinity' doctrine, and yet I do not believe God is three separate persons, or even two separate persons. The 'trinity' doctrine was not believed by Jews in the Old Testament, and there is a whole lot to be said for that. The word 'elohim', as 'trinitarians' have explained it was in the Hebrew long before this doctrine birthed (Gen 1:1). It is one reason why so many Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, for they do not worship two gods, let alone three. They know God is their only Savior, as the Old Testament says.
God was called 'Father' in the OT (Ex 4:22; Is 63:16; 64:8), for He was the Father of Israel, His 'first born' (Ex 4:22; Hos 11:1), and He also referred to Ephraim as His 'first born' (Jer 31:9). His Spirit spoke through the prophets (Ps 41:10; Is 61:1; Ez 11:5), and yet they never divided Him into two, let alone three. Jesus Christ was never known as the 'Son of God' in the OT, but Is prophesied of the 'child' or the 'Son' being born in the future (Is 6:9; 7:14), which He was (Mat 1:23; Luke 1:31). If they, like the Jewish disciples, realized God was manifest in the flesh, they would receive Him and Lord and Savior.
1 Tim 3:16 tells us clearly, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
Likewise, others who hold to the first commandment reject latter-day Christianity because of the 'trinity' doctrine. It takes a lot of study and prayer to know if God is one, two or three and for me, I believe He is one (singular). Even Job 9:8 tells us, "Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea." Alone means alone. Jesus walked on the waves of the sea...I have several hubs on this topic (you may wish to read the link at the base of this hub called "Let Me Tell You Who God Is", as a start), and even if you do believe God is three in one, I love you with all my heart. God bless.
I liked it, the flip side. Its kinda like God repurchased the earth and the hearts of man. Through Jesus He has the title and the keys again, but He is not yet driving the car. The saints must arise, believe and inherit (or take dominion) of what their Father and elder brother purchased.
Hi Tony, some good insights. When you say 'their Father and elder brother' it appears you may be splitting God into two. I hope you understood the manifestations of God ~ in that God became a man. As the Son of Man, Jesus (God in the flesh) was the brother of James, the brother of Israel and is the 'brother' of all who are grafted in. However, He is also our Creator, the visible image of our invisible Father God. Consider God was both a Father and a Husband to Israel (Ex 4:22; Jer 31:32) ~ before He came in the flesh, and now the Church, grafted into Israel, is called the ’Bride of Christ’ (2 Cor 11:2). When we see Jesus we will be seeing the Father, just as He told Philip. Praise Him forevermore. God bless you!
Hey Judah's Daughter, my intent is not to split the manifestation of God into. I believe He is 'One God'. I once made a t-shirt that had a picture of baby Jesus in the craddle on it, the caption read 'Jehovah has come' I caught some flack because of it, exspecially from jehovah witnesses.
I suppose the focus on saying it that way is the scripture 'firstborn among many brethren' refering to Jesus rising from the dead, In God's eyes (or maybe heart's desire) 'we rose two'. Even Though Jesus was God manifested in the flesh 'Immanuel', it was completly necessary for Him to completly operate as a man on earth so as to become a faithful high priest who was 'touched by the feelings of our infirmaties'.
In other words God had to come where we were completly, not just in location on earth. He had to feel the separation from the Father, the same as we have, in order to come under us and lift us out and back into right standing or relationship with the Father.
Please keep up the good work, don't let me throw you off track. Holy Spirit is just showing me some stuff to help piece the puzzle together. We are a powerful people
I want one of those t-shirts! Are they still available? I bet JW's would have a hard time with it, but if they understood that the Greek word for the Hebrew word 'Yehovah' is 'Kurios', new meaning comes to what we must confess to be saved, found in Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [Yehovah/Kurios], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Of course, we know the Bible tells us Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21; John 10:17-18). Since we know God is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) it is no surprise His Spirit raised the body of His Christ from the dead (Rom 8:11). The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same (Rom 8:9). Finally, 1 Cor 12:3 tells us "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord [Yehovah/Kurios],' except by the Holy Spirit." Simply awesome!
Yes, those born of the Spirit are endued with power (Acts 1:8), for the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Rom 8:9), will raise us (Rom 8:11) and give us everlasting life (Gal 6:8). Currently He intercedes for us (Christ in us - Rom 8:26) until we are raised in sinless, victorious, incorruptible bodies. At that time, He as Mediator will no longer be needed, for it will be as it was in the beginning ~ Hallelujah! I absolutely love talking about our LORD GOD, who is "I AM". Love you, brother ~ God bless you!!
I have said it once or twice. If you do not know Jesus is God then you know nothing of the Book or the word. Yes I agree whole heartedly that there is Only One GOD and Yes he appears in many forms.
I also believe in three Generations or divisions of TIME, I believe GOD is not a subject or subjected to TIME, but Rather Time is subjected to GOD our Father, our Creator, our Saviour, Our every thing.
The trinity is, but one mans attempt to explain to other men that which can not be explain by any men save one the Lord our Christ, Jesus and That is GOD Al mighty Himself as ALL in ALL for ALL!
We Can not put any limitations on any of the Creators Images of Himself to us these are only Gods way of Dumbing down unto us for our benefit of understanding. This was a breath of fresh air and a great write. I enjoy knowing others are beginning to understand the concept of GOD. I wish you well in your continued studies. Keep up the Good fight of faith and know You are on the path, see it through to your death of your flesh or until the Lord our GOD his return, at least you know who to be looking to and for.
Forget the rapture it is a lie of Satan's making you will be standing against him before Our Fathers Return 10 days tribulation at the hand of this fallen Cherubim and Let the Holy spirit within you do the talking or you will commit the only unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit which is GOD himself as Jesus and at the finally period of time. For after JUDGMENT Time is no longer and we are restored or eliminated, Blotted out forever, if GOD doesn't remember you, you are not! Thanks again for the share Donnie/ Sinbad the Sailor Man
Hello sinbadsailorman, Thank you for the compliments, yet the Spirit of Truth must still respond to a couple of concerns I have about what you wrote:
You said, "The trinity is". No, it is NOT. Why place God into 'three persons' when He manifested Himself as:
1) Spirit (invisible)
2) Clouds (visible)
3) Fire (visible)
4) The Angel of the LORD (visible)
5) A man of flesh and bone (visible)
5) A rock (visible)
6) A human being (flesh, bone and blood)
Why not split Him into six? He is ONE GOD, no more, no less.
Secondly, you said "Forget the rapture it is a lie of Satan's making". The Bible is clear that we will not all sleep (die), but we will be caught up and we will be changed (from corruptible to incorruptible). If this were speaking of the resurrection, we would all be dead. Where did Enoch and Elijah go? Why are the two witnesses who are killed by the Antichrist and left in the streets of Jerusalem, resurrected and caught up into the air?
The saints will be here for the persecution of the Antichrist, but will not be here for the outpouring of God's wrath upon them. When Christ returns after His wrath is complete, He returns with the saints. If He simply picks us up and moves us to another place on the earth is not known, but we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
For more on this, using nothing but the Bible to prove this, I invite you to read my hub "In the Air-On the Earth: The Returns of Christ".
Yes, God Himself will return ~ Jesus Christ and He will reign forever and ever. Amen.
Judah's Daughter
Very good hub
Blessings
Thank you, HOO. Good to see you and may God's love and peace reign in our hearts, for one day we shall reign with Him!
Yeah JD
Thats the next thing, see ya when we there. hehe
Its strange to think its actually a reality.
Amen, HOO. Amen.
Nice article with heart felt pics,thanks for sharing this.
Thank you, crystolite. I appreciate you coming by to read and pray you are strenthened and blessed.
Matthew 28:19 - How many did Jesus say were in the Godhead here? One, two or three? Take Jesus Word for it.
How many did Jesus say would come and live in us in John 14:16,23-28. How many does Jesus mention here?
How many persons did Jesus mention in these verses besides Himself. John 3:3-8, 16.
Look at Isaiah 48:16. Here is the God of Israel who became Jesus Christ, telling us he was sent by God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 11:2 also says Jesus had a full portion of the Holy Spirit, Mother Wisdom, Proverbs 1:8(Romans 8:2),20-23,33.
So did Stephen mention the Holy Spirit as a person, Acts 7:51-55, All three are mentioned here.
I know there are a lot of fake trinities but Jesus Christ is no fake and does not lie even though there are people who will say he didn't mean what he said about the Holy Spirit and the Father, Matthew 28:18-19.
Keep trying you are almost there. Just think at one time when you were just a little baby girl the Holy Spirit was bouncing you on here knees, Psalm 131:2; Isaiah 66:12. You belong to Ruach HaKadosh, Genesis 1:2.
lionswhelp, Mat 28:19’s original text stated “Go into all the world and teach [make disciples] all nations in My name.” Believe me, I've done my homework. I suggest you read my hub "THREE That Bear Record?": http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/THREE-That-T
John 14:6 is spoken by Jesus in the flesh, not yet glorified. Therefore, He was made a little lower than elohim (God/angels) and His Father (the Spirit) was yet greater than He (John 14:28). The Spirit of Christ/Spirit of God could not come to dwell in us until He was glorified. The Greek word for ‘another’ is the word ‘allos’, meaning ‘more of the same’.
Speaking of this future indwelling, John 14:23 uses the Greek word ‘eleusometha’ , which is from the root ‘erchomai’ (future tense) - ‘will come’. Erchomai does NOT mean ‘we’, but ‘I’ and ‘I come, go’. Look it up in the Strongs at this link to biblos.com: http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2064.htm . This verse does not contain the word ‘we’ in Greek, for that word is ‘hemeis’ as shown in 1 John 4:19 “We love because He first loved us.”
Regarding vs. 24-26, focus on vs. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.” Regarding vs. 26, what does Jesus say in John 14:18 and 28? “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you” and “I am going away, and I will come to you” Likewise, He said in John 16:7, “Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.”
You’ll have to explain to me how you see more than one person in John 3:3-8. Jesus, in the flesh, is telling Nicodemus he must be born of the flesh (water of his mother’s womb) and of the Spirit to be ‘born again’. To be born of the Spirit is to be born of God (1 John 5:1, etc.) Jesus is the Christ of God (Acts 3:18); He is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15).
Isaiah 46:16 You can look up the commentary on this verse here (base of the page) http://bible.cc/isaiah/48-16.htm “But the evidence that this [verse] refers to the Messiah is too slight to lay the foundation for such an argument; and nothing is gained to the cause of truth by such forced interpretations...The scope of the passage demands, as it seems to me, that it should be referred to the prophet himself. His object is, to state that he had not come at his own instance, or without being commissioned. He had been sent by God, and was attended by the Spirit of inspiration.”
I see Jesus telling you in John 3:3-8,16-17 that there are two other beings beside Himself in the Godhead.
Read John 1:1-3 & Genesis 1:1-3, 26. Yes, I know I'm repeating these over and over again. God in these verses is Elohim - group or family of Gods. Yahovah -The Father, Yeshua - the Word and Jesus Christ; and Ruach HaKadosh the Spirit - Mother. They are One God - Elohim. And we are bporn of the Spirit just like Jesus said. He was not always flesh. Sorry to keep hitting you on your blind side. I love your Hubs most of the time. Keep up the good work. You may have to wait until Jesus Returns to get a better understanding. God bless you and keep writing.
Lionswhelp, I hope you remember the ‘round abouts we’ve had on other hubs, and I will answer you once more, but no more, because it appears you are not teachable. John 3:3-8 has to do with being born of our natural, earthly mother’s womb (water) and born of the Spirit (God). There are not three beings here at all.
John 3:16-17 certainly tell us Jesus is the Son of God, for He was born of the Spirit (literally) and the flesh (Mary). Consider Acts 20:28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.” God purchased us with His OWN blood.
Have you looked up the definition of 'elohim' in the Strongs Concordance? Short Definition: Angels. Long Definition: angels, exceeding, God, very great, mighty; Plural of elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates [court]; and sometimes as a superlative -- angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Here, we can see that 'elohim' includes angels and magistrates (court, judges). 'Elohim' also includes mankind, for if you read Ps 82:6, which states, “I said, ‘You are gods [elohim], And all of you are sons of the Most High'”, quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 [‘theos’ in Greek]. There is only One LORD God. Eph 4:5 tells us there is only One Lord, just as there is only one faith and only one baptism (the baptism of fire - the Holy Spirit).
Now, speaking of John 1:1, the Word was not 'with' [par] God [elohim/theos], but was 'TO' [pros] God [elohim/theon – object]. The Word was indeed God [Elohim/Theos – subject].
Of course Jesus was not always flesh; He was Spirit - God (John 4:24), who created all things. He was the Word that spoke, “Let there be Light”. He manifested the invisible Spirit of God in all the visible forms listed in this hub. As far as God saying, “Let Us make man in Our image”, you obviously haven’t read my hub “God: Let Us Make Man in Our Image?” If you are teachable, please do so: http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/God-Let-Us-M
Judah's Daughter, Sorry I lost my INTERNET access for about five days here, I did not mean to imply that GOD is Not at Least Three I meant to imply He is not limited to Three.
He only uses Three for our benefit and I do not only use the man made and edited Good Book, for it is not the only source of the story nor is it a completed story from all the writers there of, I am a long time believer and I will also do a write shortly on this rapture stuff every one wishes to believe and preach now a days as Gospel truth!
I for one Can not find it in the GOOD BOOK's Story or any where before the death of the Last living Apostle John. So I will Never believe in any of its so called structured truth by any Scholar I am not a every day Christian any longer, but I am a believer, believe it or not I am a man of CHRIST's I hold not to one religion or any one sect's beliefs.
I am a sole believer in Christ our Lord Jesus his words inspire my heart always and I have come Full Circle to the belief in Him Knowing all Things are possible with GOD the Father I know beyond a Shadow of a doubt that He will accomplish all things.
That HE said AND I can not see, nor feel this rapture Story in or with out of the Good Book. The big problem most have is how they Understand How Time relates within the STORY of our world that we are currently trapped in.
Sorry If you are offended by the truth, That I have come to Know No I am not, I would like to see every one come to the truth as they see it and have sought it out. And for them selves as GOD is a personal GOD to all His Children even Satan still.
This is His Nature, but He sticks To the rules He has laid out and set before this time, during this Time, and as when He see Fit the Ending of This TIME period. That we are all currently in.
Thank you for the share it is still a lovely write and holds much truth. Donnie/ Sinbad the Sailor Man
Hello sinbadsailorman, I know how frustrating it can be when your computer is working right ~ I've gone through similar issues this past week.
The point is, when you mention 'three' or any number in regard to God, other than ONE, it gives birth to such doctrines as polytheism and 'trinitarianism'. The Jews are God's CHOSEN and knew Him LONG before we did. They saw Him in Spirit and flesh, clouds and fire, a rock with living water flowing forth...and never have they testified God is more than ONE God. I'm glad you understand that God manifests Himself as He wishes, but I just want us to be careful in the way we share about God with others. If Jews and even Muslims understood they do not have to violate their belief in One God and furthermore, understand that Yeshua/Isa was indeed God in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16), multitudes would be saved.
Hey, I'm right there with you about things being translated incorrectly, added and taken away from scripture. Why do you think I referenced Mat 28:19 to lionswhelp, and stated in my hub about 1 John 5:7 being altered? There is documented research and proof of this.
Now, if YOU can prove that the scriptures regarding the saints being 'caught up to meet the Lord in the air' are false, I will listen. Sure, there are many who don't believe it, but they have no scriptural proof ~ or credible documentation it is false. Enoch and Elijah did not see death, the Bible says. The two witnesses of Revelation are told to 'Come up here' and after being resurrected, ascend into the air in front of everyone. Do you have proof that these texts don't belong in the Bible or that the original languages interpret these passages differently?
The only time I'm 'offended' is when man puts trust in his own opinion, rather than backing up what he believes with scripture or proof of an alteration of scripture. God is on the throne, not us, right?
I respect you, so don't think I see you as an enemy over doctrinal discussion. That's what this is; I have not perceived it as an argument, and if you have, I apologize. God bless you. I look forward to reading your upcoming hub, proving there is no such thing as the rapture. Notify me when it's written, okay? You can click on 'contact Judah's Daughter' (right side of this screen) and send me an email.
Thanks JD.
You are very understanding. Especially where you mentioned Jesus was born "literally" of the Spirit. Their is hope for you yet.
Yes, lionswhelp, Jesus (Yeshua) is the Son of Who? God. Who is His Father? God. Who is He? God. ONE GOD, ONE LORD. AMEN.
jehovah [YHWH] Can read your heart, dont give up looking for the truth because it could be at your front door.
A witness ~ Rev 3:30 confirms: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." Our Shepherd also said in John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."
Ps 23:1 states, "The LORD [Yehovah/YHVH] is my Shepherd" and Jesus stated in John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
Actually the first person he Father begot Jesus, John 3:16.
The second person should be the Holy Spirit - Ruach the Mother, Matthew 1:18&20- Conceived Jesus in a Mary's human womb.
The third person Jesus was born out of a Mary's womb as God the Father's and the Holy Spirit's first born son, John 3:16. Elohim - Family, Father, Mother, Son.
This is interesting because the Father's first born son was not Adam who was made from mud or red clay by Ruach the Holy Spirit and the Lord the Word(Jesus Christ) who gave him the breath of life, Job 33:4, Genesis 1:26. Adam was not made by the Father but by the other two Beings in their images, Adam-man & Adam-female,Genesis 1:26-27 - Let "us".
lionswhelp, I am only posting your comment to protect others from following you and such heretical beliefs. WOW.
There is a slight problem with your interpretation of "Son" referring to all humanity. The verse says that all except God have been subject to the Son. If it was true that Son meant all of humanity, then angels would be subject to man, not man lower than angels.
Hebrews 2:7
You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
Thus, I conclude that "Son" can only be referring to Christ, our Lord.
Hi Daniel R, You said “The verse says that all except God have been subject to the Son.” You then went on to say, “If it was true that Son meant all of humanity, then angels would be subject to man, not man lower than angels.” In our fleshly state (your reference to Heb 2:7), we are made lower than the angels, but in our divine state (post-physical death), angels are subject to man.
1 Cor 6:3 “Do you not know that we will [future tense] judge angels? How much more matters of this life?” I trust you will reconsider your conclusion. Praise God!
This is after resurrection. It is our spirits that are raised, not our bodies. Jesus's spirit was raised. He was raised a spirit-being. I think you should do a study on what the Bible teaches about death. We do not go to Heaven or to Hell when we die. It is a state of unconciousness. Unfortunately, though, not many people know the truth about Heaven and Hell and it is these two subjects which create Atheists. As well as Jesus being God. I think we need to rethink these two doctrines. I do not believe it either the Heaven and Hell orthodoxy or the Jesus is God orthodoxy is Biblical or Scriptural.
Hello Daniel, our spirits never die, while our flesh does (made in the image of God). In John 11:26 Jesus said, "everyone who lives and believes in Me will NEVER die. Do you believe this?"
Jesus' body was resurrected from the dead, as He showed Himself to Thomas in John 20:27 "Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.'"
In the next verse, "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'"
There will be two resurrections of our bodies, but our bodies will be immortal, incorruptible (just as Jesus' was) - 1 Cor 15:53. We can see these two resurrections in Revelation 20:5-6. The saints are raised in the first resurrection and reign with Christ a thousand years (however long that actually is) ON THE EARTH. Because, at the end of that thousand years, Satan is released from his prison (the pit/Sheol/Hades) and gathers the nations (unbelieving nations) to surround the Holy City (Jerusalem) and fire comes from heaven to destroy them all (Rev 20:7-9). After he is judged to the final hell, Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) - Rev 20:10; the second resurrection of the unbelieving dead takes place. They, too, are judged according to their deeds (for they have no Savior) and cast into that final destination where the Antichrist (beast), false prophet and Satan are (Rev 20:11-14).
The new heaven and earth are then made manifest = Paradise ~ where the Tree of Life is (ref Gen 2:9; Rev 22:2). Also, understand that the thief on the cross was told by Jesus, who was also on a cross, "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)
Consider also what the Apostle Paul stated in 2 Cor 12:3-4 "And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."
The Greek word for 'caught up' here is "harpazó", the same word used in 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."
Why in the air? Where exactly IS Paradise? Let's go back to Paul's testimony in 2 Cor 12, just one verse before vs. 3 (vs. 2) "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven." His words in verses 3-4 clarify that it is Paradise (vs. 2), which is located in this third heaven.
So, is there life after physical death? Yes. Is there a heaven (Paradise) and Hell (Sheol/Hades now and Gehenna then)? Yes. Is there going to be a literal resurrection of the just and the unjust? Yes. Is there going to be a rapture, a catching up "harpazó" into the air? Yes.
Again, I trust you will reconsider your conclusion. Praise God!
I believe Jesus's words in John 11:26 are 100% true. However, I do not believe Jesus meant what you say He meant. I believe He was referring to the fact that we will not be separated from God.
And no, I do not believe Jesus was physically resurrected. Here is why:
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
As for the "physical" moments that Jesus had after the resurrection, we must understand that Jesus was raised as a particular type of spirit-being that COULD take on flesh. The angels who Lot washed the feet of in Genesis - these were spirit-beings that could take on flesh-form.
As for 1 Corinthians 12, I have always understood it to be Paul making a reference about himself. Strange how one considers themselves a man they know but Paul was a very different man after having that experience.
Now note what Jesus had to say about Lazarus -
John 11:11
These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
Unless you believe that when we sleep our spirits somehow temporarily separate from our bodies than no, death is a state of unconciousness.
Hi Daniel, one last response before I go to bed for the evening...God bless you.
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption
Answer: (Gen 18:2) YHWH appeared to Abraham in immortal flesh (as He has in His post-resurrected form). For this reason, God, who is our only Savior (Isa 43:11) took on flesh and blood to shed His own blood for our sins (Acts 20:28), for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22). Corruptible flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, for we will be incorruptible, immortal when that inheritance is handed over to us (Dan 7:27).
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Answer: As I stated, “our spirits never die, while our flesh does (made in the image of God).” Jesus was God in the flesh. He existed in the form (Greek word ‘morphe’) of God, also in the form (schema) and likeness (homoioma) of man. God is Spirit (John 4:24) and is invisible (Col 1:15). His Spirit indwelt the flesh of the Son (Col 2:9). While His flesh literally died on that cross, His Spirit never died; nor, does ours.
Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
Answer: He became one of us, you and me. He was made a little lower than the angels, remember? He was tempted and tried in every way as we, even beyond (Heb 4:15). He overcame what the first Adam could not – to make the Way, to lead the Way, to be the Way.
You stated, “As for the "physical" moments that Jesus had after the resurrection, we must understand that Jesus was raised as a particular type of spirit-being that COULD take on flesh. The angels who Lot washed the feet of in Genesis - these were spirit-beings that could take on flesh-form.” This is confirmed in my first answer to you regarding 1 Cor 15:50 above. Amen.
Regarding 2 Cor 12:2-4, Paul would have said he was talking about himself, if he was. Even if he did experience such a thing, he didn’t know whether he was ‘in the body or out of the body’ when experiencing such inexpressible things. However, he WAS in the body to tell of his experience, amen! Remember Paul said, “absent from the body is to be home with the LORD.” (2 Cor 5:8)
In John 11:12, the Greek word for ‘sleep’ is koimaó from NG2749, which means ‘sleep, fall asleep, die’. Your question tells me you think as the disciples did when He used that word. Look at the confirmation of this in verse 13: “Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.” Now, vs. 14 clarifies, “So Jesus then said to them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’ [apothnéskó - dead].” Yes, Lazarus was as dead as Jesus was when He was placed in the tomb. Lazarus was literally raised from the dead just as Jesus was. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (though NOT immortal), just as He raised Himself from the dead, immortal (John 2:19-21). What's incredible is He could appear and disappear (John 20:26). He appeared in another form (morphe) to the two men on the road (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:15, 31) and later appeared to Saul (Paul) as invisible, yet speaking (Acts 9:3-4) ~ "And God said..." (Gen 1:3) ~ Amen ~ the Word was made flesh! (John 1:14) ~ Hallelujah!
Ecc 12:7 tells us, “then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” Understand that the Spirit of God in Jesus never died. His flesh died. His Spirit was alive to raise His body from the dead ~ yes, a spiritual, immortal body ~ He is alive! Likewise, our spirit will not die ~ ever. Our body will die and at the appointed time of the resurrection, our spirit and immortal body will be united, just as it was with Jesus Christ. Amazingly true!
Think of Moses and Elijah standing with the LORD Jesus on the mount of transfiguration! We know Moses died (Jude 1:9) and the resurrections are yet to come! I pray this ministers to you! Rejoice!!
Actually, in 1 Corinthians 12, there ARE some translations that DO clarify that Paul was speaking of himself. Now if you want to serve a god that is fry-cooking people in Hell as of the moment, then feel free to do so. In the meantime, I mock you for it! Why? What kind of god that cares about us would not only make us all sinners, but then also fry-cook us for endless ages in Hell? That is NOT a merciful god. And if it is the god of the Bible than I hope Satan dethrones Christ. Go Satan!
Well, Daniel, I'd like you to reference which translations state that Paul was the one caught up to the third heaven (Paradise)...I've not seen one nor ever heard it. Either way, the point of the passage is what it is.
You are not the only one who despises the doctrine of hell. Is it possible the whole doctrine was added to the New Testament? Possibly, considering 'Lucifer' was added and the whole concept of a three-person Godhead (by the RCC).
The Bible, as it is written and translated, shows that Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. What it IS exactly, who knows? You said "separation from God". That would be 'hell' for anyone. So many of us take for granted all that He's created and the age of grace in which we live. Get something straight. God did not MAKE us sinners. He gave us the ability to CHOOSE. I can prove this to you scripturally. Choosing NOT to choose is NOT an option. We will serve one of two M/masters (Rom 6:16).
The Bible points to levels of 'hell' (separation from God perhaps) or levels of 'torment' (emotional anguish perhaps), when it comes to the judgment. For example, Jesus said in Mat 10:14-15 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."
Weren't Sodom and Gomorrah already judged when they were destroyed? There's proof of this destruction, so there's no disputing it happened. Fire and brimstone (inflammable sulpher) are present in volcanic, deep-earth eruptions, and that is exactly what happened.
Even the demons know they yet face a final judgment. Look at Mat 8:29 "And they cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment [basanizó - I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves] us before the time?'" This same word 'basanizó' is used in Luke 16:23 of the 'rich man in Hades'.
And read Luke 8:31 "They [demons] were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss." The Greek word for 'abyss' here is 'abussos', which is defined "the abyss, unfathomable depth, an especially Jewish conception, the home of the dead and of evil spirits."
The Antichrist (angel of destruction = Abaddon/Apollyon) is to come up from that abyss and go to destruction. Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss [abussos] and go to destruction [apóleia]. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."
This angel, I believe, is the one the Catholic heirarchy named 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14. That fallen cherub was the king of Babylon then and will be the end-time king of Babylon, the Great Harlot.
I have many hubs on this topic, and though you may despise it, I only teach what is written in the Bible. John 3:17-18 tells us the good news ~ "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is NOT JUDGED; he who does not believe has been JUDGED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
God is both our Judge (One who avenges and condemns) and Savior (One who saves us from that judgment). He is LORD of all creation, including Satan and his demons (Job 2:1). We shall overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our tesimony (Rev 12:11). Without faith in Him, we will not overcome.
Once again, I pray you will reconsider your conclusion. Praise God!
You need to read the entire context of 2 Corinthians 12:2 - Paul did not directly state this was himself because he already had accused himself of boasting.
Now, as for the location of Paradise - this is significant. Since it is in the air this means that the comma in Luke 23:43 has to go after the word today. Otherwise, Jesus was lying to Mary when he said "I have not yet ascended".
Now as for Jesus being God - that's a whole other story and I think you need to do more research on this.
We do know that Jesus is not God the Father.
So Paul was okay with sharing his conversion experience on the road to Damascus, but not bold enough to say he had a vision of Paradise? Doesn't make sense, Daniel R.
Jesus IS God, and there's only One God: Spirit who manifested in the flesh. His Spirit is omnipresent, just as the Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ lives in all believers today - omnipresent. Jesus could be both in His resurrected form (immortal flesh) and in Paradise (Spirit) at the same time. It is man's lack of Spiritual understanding that compels them to move the comma to FIT their own understanding,,,
I need to do more research on the fact that Jesus is God? You've only read one hub...there's a MULTITUDE. I can't possibly put all that I've researched in just one hub, or even two or three....hope you keep on reading and are able to receive, as God graces you to. It is His will that we come to KNOW Him and be KNOWN by Him. For, there will be those He's created that will hear on that Day of Judgement, "Depart from Me, for I never KNEW you."
Jesus said in John 14:7-9 "If you had KNOWN Me, you would have KNOWN My Father also; from now on you KNOW Him, and have SEEN Him. Philip said to Him, 'Lord [YeHoVaH], show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to KNOW Me, Philip? He who has SEEN Me has SEEN the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" That's not hard to understand for me...
If you do not 'understand', Jesus said in Mat 13:11 "To you it has been granted to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. To those who listen to My teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
Keep on growing ~ God's not finished with you yet :-) Praise God!
Here's a website on the whole Hell - Heaven thing.
http://what-happens-when-we-die.com/
And as for John 14:9 - Jesus can say "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" without claiming to be God or claiming to be the Father. He perfectly represents who His Father is. He always does the works He sees His Father doing. Thus, He is virtually telling Thomas "You don't need to see Him because I perfectly represent Him". You cannot be the one you represent.
Now, a verse that demonstrates that Jesus is not the Father - 1 John 2:22-23. What John is saying is that those who deny a realistic Father-Son relationship are Antichrists. Trinitarians do this when they proclaim the Son has always existed as distinct person with the Father. The Son was created by God (Prov. 8:22, Rev. 3:14, Col. 1:15).
Daniel, In the flesh, Jesus was fully subject to the Father as we are. The works of the Father, the Holy Spirit, were done through Him because He was the house, the temple (John 2:19, 21), the tabernacle, the dwelling place of the invisible God. When His flesh died, He did not cease to exist, even for a breath of time. Likewise, believers in Christ will never cease to exist, even for a breath of time and we will be fully subject to Him for eternity.
Jesus didn’t tell His disciples, “You don’t need to see the Father”; He said, “From NOW on you have seen Him and know Him.” He follows with saying “Have I been so long with you and yet you have not come to know Me?” Phillip knew He was the Son of God and asked that the Father be shown to them, but He was standing right there with them. That’s what Phillip missed and what you miss.
Let me give you an example of Antichrist, those deny the Father and the Son: Islam. Allah is not a father for he has no son. This does not mean those who know the Father (Spirit) and the Son (begotten flesh) are One God. For more on comparing Islam with YHVH and eschatology, I invite you to read my hub, “Islam and Revelation”: http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h
The Son is not eternally begotten (born) as the creed states. Yes, the Son was ‘made a little lower than the angels’. He was created in Mary’s womb. John 1:3 tells us “Without Him [Jesus Christ] NOTHING was made that was made.” Yet, if we go back to Isa 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the One who FORMED YOU FROM THE WOMB, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF And spreading out the earth all ALONE.”
God is eternal; Jesus is God and for this reason pre-existed Abraham and called Himself “I AM” (Ego Eimi). Job 9:8 tells us of the LORD “Who ALONE spreads out the heavens, and treads upon the waves of the sea.” – He ALONE! Now, let’s see who’s treading upon the waves of the sea in John 6:19 “Then, when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat; and they were frightened.” What does Jesus say in the very next verse? “Ego Eimi!”
Rather than write and write and write about proving the identity of the Father/Son here, just click on my name, “Judah’s Daughter” on the upper right corner of the screen here and read some more of my hubs. You may want to start with one of my latest called “The Eternal Son?” http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h
"The works of the Father, the Holy Spirit, were done through Him because He was the house, the temple (John 2:19, 21), the tabernacle, the dwelling place of the invisible God"
I need to say no more here. Your quote says it all. You reduce our Lord to just a robot created by God. That is about as Antichrist and Satanic as they get.
You also know me better as "Ariel" and "DT".
Believe it or not, DT, I had actually typed your initials while replying to Daniel, then thought better of it...the LORD knew. No need to comment under assumed handles, as though I wouldn't answer you. I just won't partake of clanging symbol rhetoric and seething attacks.
Yes, Jesus is like an 'Avatar', God with us, God to us. Not a robot, but God Himself. If you think I'm saying He was just a shell with no humanity: temptations, pain, emotions, weakness, tiredness, hunger, poverty...all those things, you are mistaken (Heb 4:15). He was both God the Spirit (the Father) and the Son of God - Son of Man because He took on flesh that could bleed and die. I've shown you the scriptures; I've shown you the Truth. You have a choice to pray about these things and ask God to confirm them to you or reject this Truth and stubbornly stick with your own understanding.
Prov 3:5-6 NLT "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding. Seek His will in all you do, and He will show you which path to take." You want to believe He is not God? Or will He show you He is "I AM"? How thirsty are you, or are you already full...
I am yet praying for you, DT...Daniel...aka Ariel...(Mat 5:44). May He open your mind to understand the scriptures (Luke 24:45).
a.k.a. Arletta.
Yes, I have gone into in-deep studies on this subject and have prayed about it. I am working on refuting Sam Shamoun and the answeringislam website on my Youtube channel. I am more than willing to share my videos and theological topics with you but only if you are not insistent on holding a sole monopoly on truth.
Of course, I am always thirsty. Only the Arian approach to scripture could ever give me a sataisfying answer though. I kind've had to start letting the whole thing flow together and it truthfully hurt to think on the possibility that Jesus wasn't God but then I realized it was actually that interpretation that strayed most. He is the Son of God, He isn't just called the Son of God. He was begotten and created. It is a beautiful relationship that we cannot reduce to an illusion.
Now, let me explain - Jesus is God's representative. God's chief executive. God's voice. God's spokesperson. God's mouthpiece. God's Son. He is belonging to God but He has thoughts that are different from God's. He can choose to disobey like Lucifer. He can choose to obey. He is also properly titled "Michael". For He challenges those who make themselves equal to His Father. He is the most faithful defender of His Father's throne. He chooses to obey. He works for God and carries out God's duty. He represents God perfectly. It is because of Jesus, God's most prized Son, that Satan is powerless to take the throne of the Father. The Father loves His Son and the Son of God chooses to love His Father by representing Him. When we take this balance of harmony away, we find it is impossible to faithfully and realistically serve both God and Messiah.
DT, aka Daniel R, aka Ariel, aka Arletta ~ how many of you are there anyhow? A Legion? JK
So you’re ‘satisfied’ with Arian theology. You said, “Truthfully, it hurt to think on the possibility that Jesus wasn’t God”? Somewhere, you made a choice to reject the Truth, or suppress it. Why? Only God knows why. The ‘straying’ you are speaking of has to do with all the variations of the ‘Trinity’ doctrine out there. You are right not to accept that God is three ‘persons’. Now, you’ve gotten to the point of believing Jesus is not God, when the scriptures plainly declare that He is.
Yes, Jesus was begotten of a woman, Mary. God, in the flesh, had a beginning. God in Spirit had no beginning and has no end. Jesus declared in Rev 22:13 NLT (one of your favorite versions) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." We discussed before how many Alpha and Omegas, First and Lasts, Beginning and Ends there are…the answer? Only ONE.
Rev 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.”
Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Isa 44:6 “This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and I am the Last; apart from Me there is NO God.”
The way you describe Jesus is one thing, but the way you describe God (as a separate entity) is another. You make Him out to be the ‘absent Dad’, doing all things by His Son, a separate ‘person’ and not doing anything Himself. God the Father abhors child sacrifice and the Word declares He purchased the Church with His Own blood (Acts 20:28). God would not call child sacrifice an abomination and detestable, and even say it would never enter His mind (Jer 32:35), then turn around and do this for all the world to honor as holy.
You’ve taken YeHhoWsHua off the throne, for we NEVER see ‘Michael’ on a throne. Never. Michael himself would NOT rebuke Satan (Jude 1:9), but Jesus DID rebuke Satan (Mat 16:23; Mark 8:33; Luke 4:8). You’ve taken the LORD GOD OFF HIS THRONE and made Him into a created being, rather than the Almighty Creator of all things, the Creator of the angels! We are NOT to worship and serve the creation. Rom 1:25 “For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and SERVED the creature [created thing(s)] rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.”
You don’t believe Jesus is God and believe He is Michael, a created angel. You then say you ‘SERVE’ BOTH. Let the Word speak to your heart. If it wasn’t for missing the mark, God would not have given man the opportunity and ability to repent (change his mind). You 'repented' from the Truth, and now I ask that you repent to the Truth.
I am sending you an e-mail.
JD i love the way you answerd that Ariel or DT or what else,i love your boldness, and not willing to compromise the truth of God because you don't want to hurt anyone's feeling . Some people are just tools in the hand of the devil, i encourage you to keep up your good works for the Lord Jesus Christ (Jehovah God).Thank you.
I am so excited that you KNOW who God IS, kumba! I can't wait to meet you and spend eternity with you!!!
Yes, 'long-suffering' is an attribute of the Holy Spirit in us, praise God. However, I recently wrote to Daniel, as he is hell-bent on trying to convice me that Jesus is not the Father:
"You are a servant of the doctrine you choose to obey (Rom 6:16). God will not strive after you forever (Gen 6:3). Based on Rom 1:25 of which you are guilty (worshiping and serving the creation, rather than ONLY the Creator) vs. 28 tells you there will come a point He hands you over to a depraved mind (adokimos- failing to pass the test, unapproved, counterfeit.) My goal is to follow Jam 5:20: "let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." If you choose not to repent of your 'error', Rom 1:27 warns you will "receive in your own person the due penalty of your error." The word 'error' in both of these verses is the Greek word 'plane', which means 'delusion'.
Speaking of 'delusion', let's now read 2 Thes 2:11-12: "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding [plane] influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged [krith?sin - condemned] who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."
Let us hold fast what we have, so that no one will take our crown, kumba! (Rev 3:11) May we make the most of our time, for the days are EVIL (Eph 5:16). You are a breath (Spirit) of fresh air and Living Water to my soul. God bless you always!!!
Bravo!! My husband and I came across 1 Cor 15:28 a year or so ago and I read it and then re read it... Isn't it funny how you can read the word and then re read it later and find something new. God's Spirit makes His word alive and true!! But I was astonished that there was hardly anything said about this scripture when I googled it. If we choose to remain blind when He tries to show us truth I believe we will be judged for it. Thankfully He is full of mercy and continues to shine light on the narrow path because without guided steps we will never make it. I love your thirst for truth. God Bless!
Sold Out to Jesus, another Daughter of Judah, you SEE and UNDERSTAND, Praise GOD!! Adam and Eve began on 'The Flip Side' (ruling over everything); their fall brought Emmanuel, our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (2 Pet 1:1; Is 43:11) as the last Adam to clear that holy, narrow path of redemption (John 14:6) for all who will follow Him (Ps 23:1; John 10:14, 27), back to 'The Flip Side' of Gen 1:28; Dan 7:22, 26-27; Ps 8:4-9; Heb 2:5-9; and Rev 21:7!!
This IS the GLORIOUS TRUTH. Yes ~ "If we choose to remain blind when He tries to show us truth I believe we will be judged for it." Let us LOVE the TRUTH (2 Thes 2:19) and REJOICE in the TRUTH (1 Cor 13:6), for He IS the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6), amen!!
fred allen Level 1 Commenter 16 months ago
You are to be commended in your passion for truth. You search for it as for the finest gold. I shre your passion for truth. One thing God has made clear to me is that I am to live out what I know as I search for understanding on the things that yet elude me. May God our Father richly bless you as you mine His word for priceless treasure!