God: Let Us Make Man in Our Image?
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TWO VIEWPOINTS
There are differing views being taught in the Christian world today about Genesis 1:26-27, which states “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’ God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." This study may be a bit overwhelming or "blow your mind", but here we go!
Who is God speaking to in this passage? One teaching is that God is speaking to Himself. This view imagines the Father, Son and Holy Spirit conversing with each other, and maintains that the heavenly host were not made in God's image. The Bible does not confirm this view, so it is assumed. As we delve further into this study, we will find the mystery unveiled, not only in the literal Hebrew wording of Gen 1:26, but in the definitions of "God" and “image". This leads us to the second teaching, which is that God very well could have been speaking to His heavenly host - His angels and magistrates.
If you look up the Hebrew wording of Gen 1:26, note "Let Us" is not in the text!This verse literally states, "Said God make man Our image to Our likeness, rule the fish of the sea the birds of the sky the cattle all the earth every creeping creeps on the earth". This does not compromise the second view, in that God created man in His OWN image [singular] (vs.27), yet in the image and likeness of the heavenly host, when it comes to governance.
We're going to look at both viewpoints here. Before we proceed, I would like to share that I am a saved "Gentile" and this hub was written in February 2010. I recently came upon a Messianic Jewish website, AhavatYeshua that not only confirmed and blessed the hub Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS, but has given their blessing to this teaching as well. May you also be blessed beyond measure by His Word this day!
GOD SPEAKING TO HIMSELF
In my hub, "Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS!" we see that God is not three separate entities or 'persons'. God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary and begat God in the flesh. Jesus was not God’s Son in the beginning for He was not yet begotten (born). God is a 'person' (singular) as shown in Job 13:8 and Heb 1:3 and His visible 'person' is His Christ.
For those of you who have been taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were speaking to each other, we should look at John 1:1-2 in the Greek: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."
A mystery to note in this passage is that the word "with" is the Greek word pros, which literally means "to". This word is also used in John 16:10 when Jesus said, "because I go to [pros] the Father and you no longer see Me." It is not the same word as used in John 14:17: "you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you", which is the Greek word par, meaning "beside". Check out the next verse, 18 "I will not leave you as orphans [Fatherless]; I will come to [pros] you**."
So, if the Word wasn't beside God and God was the Word, how do we understand John 1:1-2? This passage would literally translate, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was to God [theon - object] and God [Theos - subject] was the Word Θεος ην ο λογος. He was in the beginning to God [theon - object]."
What about John 1:3? "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Consider when we speak words, we breathe. “Spirit” is translated ruach (Hebrew) or pneuma (Greek) and means “breath or blast of air”. God, who is Spirit (John 4:24), spoke His Word by which everything was created. Even man was created by the Spirit of God: Job 33:4 states, "The Spirit [ruach] of God has made me, And the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life."
Does God speak to God? Surely so, but the following passages are prophetic of the coming Messiah, God in the flesh (form of God = morphe; form of man = schema), Who would return to be God on the throne of judgment and righteousness.
Ps 45:6 states, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." This prophecy is fulfilled in Heb 1:8 "But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"
Ps 110:1 states, "The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand [scepter - power] until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'" This prophecy is fulfilled in Mat 26:64 "Jesus said to him, 'You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.'" It is important to understand that God, Who is Spirit, does not have a literal "right hand". This term is a reference to His power.
Surely, Jesus as God in the flesh spoke to God (the Holy Spirit), His Father (God speaking to God). Prior to this, He was God (John 1:1). It does not make sense that God would speak to Himself as “Us” or “Our” in the beginning, especially since He said His name is "I AM" (Ex 3:14; Ex 20:2; John 5:58). This personal prounoun, "I", is singular, and as we read earlier, His own image (tsalem) is singular, as well.
This brings us to examine more of the second viewpoint; that in the creation of man account, God was speaking to His angelic host (including His courts).
GOD SPEAKING TO ANGELIC HOST
Genesis 1:1 states, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This indicates He created the heavens and its host first, then the earth and life within it afterwards.
- Day 1: Light separated from darkness; morning and evening ~ the first “day”.
- Day 2: God separated the waters from the heavens and from the earth. God called the expanse, “sky”.
- Day 3: God caused the water to separate on the earth, bringing forth dry ground and called the waters, “seas”. Vegetation and plants were brought forth on the earth.
- Day 4: God made the sun, the moon and the stars to govern day from night.
- Day 5: God made the sea and air creatures.
- Day 6: God made the land creatures, then mankind.
- Day 7: God rested.
Nehemiah 9:6 states, "You alone are the LORD (YHVH). You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them. You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You."
Do you see angels being created on or after the sixth day (when man was created)? Because angels are called “stars” in the Bible, they might have been created on the fourth day. Or, consider this possibility: Genesis 1:2 states, "And the earth was without form, and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep; And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters". This indicates the planet earth was in existence before the first day.
If so, consider Job 38:4-7: "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Therefore, we can see that the angels of God were with [par] God when He created the earth, and certainly when He created man. Based on the following definition of God, we can also see His court magistrates were with [par] Him as well.
The Hebrew definition of "God" in Gen 1:26-27 is elohim (also spelled elohiym), meaning: Short Definition: Angels. Long Definition: angels, exceeding, God, very great, mighty; Plural of elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates [court]; and sometimes as a superlative -- angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. Here, we can see that "elohim" includes angels and magistrates (court, judges).
The LORD God created the heavens and the earth and breathed into Adam's nostrils (Gen 2:4, 7). Again, Job 33:4 sates. "The Spirit of God [El - singular] has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life."
Gen 1:27 states God (Elohim) created man in His own image (singular image). Just as Gen 2:4 confirms Gen 1:1, YHVH Himself [El - Job 33:4] created man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. While the LORD God created man, the angels and heavenly host were certainly present and are a part of elohim, which we will get into next. Thus far, it appears the Word was speaking to (pros) God (elohim/theos) in the beginning.
Consider the following two verses:
Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven."
Luke 12:8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God."
Now compare the KJV and NAS of Psalm 8:5:
KJV "For thou hast made Him a little lower than the angels [elohim], and hast crowned Him with glory and honour."
NAS "Yet You have made Him a little lower than God [elohim], And You crown Him with glory and majesty!"
See the clarity of the use of 'Elohim' as shown in Psalm 82:1 "A Psalm of Asaph. God [Elohim] takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers [elohim].
THE IMAGE OF GOD
So what exactly is the "image" of God? First of all, did God have a literal image in the beginning? The Bible tells us that God is Spirit (John 4:24). In the Old Testament, He manifested Himself in clouds by day and fire by night (Ex 13:21-22). We are told that God is invisible (Rom 1:20; Col 1:15; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb 11:27).
So, how can it be that God made man in His image, if He didn’t have an image?
Gen 1:27 states, “male and female He created them.” Is God both male and female? I don’t think this is what this means, for He is called “Father” and “Son”, let alone the fact His Spirit fathered Jesus Christ with a female. Yes, God, who is Spirit (John 4:24; 2 Cor 3:17), has both male and female attributes (Mat 23:37), but this does not mean He is both male and female 'persons'. So, there’s got to be more to this “image” in the beginning, and God gave me the understanding: All throughout the Bible we need to see the 'marriage' relationship of God to mankind. God is the Husband to Israel (Jer 31:32). Christ is the Husband of the Bride, the Church (Eph 5:23). The physical birth of children represents the spiritual birth of God's children. Creation began with a M/marriage and will end with a Marriage.
As covered earlier, the word “image” in this verse is the Hebrew word tselem and means: image, vain show; From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol -- image, vain shew.
“Vain show" and "idol” would certainly not apply to Gen 1:27, so we must ponder the figurative meaning.
We know that man is spirit, soul and body (1 Thes 5:23), yet each man is a literal, singular individual. God is Spirit (John 4:24); God has a soul (Mat 12:18; Is 42:1); God has a body (in the Old Testament, the manifestation of His Christ; in the New Testament, the physical body of His Son, once again ~ His Christ). Now, consider you (your spirit) operate as both a parent and a child, but are the same individual. Isaiah 9:6 prophesies the Son as being the Father as well as the Comforter, but is yet the same God.
God has both an invisible and visible image; we need to grasp that tselem is speaking of God's spiritual image. To expound more on how each man (male or female) is made in the spiritual image (tsalem) of God, in respect to Elohim ~ in spirit, male and female (i.e. Adam and Eve), when joined together (consummated) are no longer two, but one flesh (Greek word fem. of heis = mia). Jesus, as a Man also referred to being one (heis) with the Father (Spirit). Likewise, all believers are one (heis) in Christ (Spirit) and each believer is being renewed into His image (Col 3:10)! Look back at the definition of elohim, which is also defined as multiplicity/greatness. Man was created to physically birth many children; the LORD God then gives spiritual birth to those children, multiplying elohim!
**Have you ever understood Ps 82:6 and John 10:34? "I said, 'You are gods [elohim], and all of you are sons of the Most High.'" BELIEVERS are part of elohim (God)! Now, think of John 1:1 also in a prophetic sense, in that "The Word was to elohim, the sons of the Most High ~ man". Timeless!
As I mentioned before, just as God's heaven includes a court or system of governance, so it is with man on earth. Now re-read Genesis 1:26-27 (translated as it is) with this full understanding: “Then God said, ‘...let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’
THE IMAGE OF MAN
It's time to go to the New Testament and start with Col 1:15 “He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” The word “image” here is the Greek word eikon and means: image; From eiko; a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance -- image. Likewise, Col 3:10 (renewal of man to God's image) uses this word as well. It appears this is the Greek rendition of the Hebrew word tsalem. Just as "idol" did not apply in the Hebrew definition, "statue" would not apply in the Greek.
Jesus Christ was and is God’s spiritual and visible image, yet He also took on the form and likeness of created man. This is shown in Phil 2:6-7: “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”
In this verse, “form of God” is the Greek word morphe meaning: form; Perhaps from the base of meros (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature -- form. He was both the visible 'shape' and invisible, 'figurative nature' of God.
However, God also took on the form of a bond-servant (slave). This word “form” is the Greek word schema, meaning: outward appearance, form, shape; From the alternate of echo; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), i.e. (by implication) external condition -- fashion.
God was therefore a literal human being (Jesus), as He was made in the likeness of men. The word “likeness” is the Greek word homoioma, meaning: that which is made like something; likeness, form, appearance; From homoioo; a form; abstractly, resemblance -- made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.
Let's look at 1 Tim 3:16, which confirms: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
Some who argue the Greek word 'God' is NOT used in the verse above, read the verse before (vs. 15) to confirm its proper usage.
ABOUT ANGELS
There is only One LORD God (YHWH Elohim). Yet, now that we understand elohim includes the heavenly host (consider the 24 elders in Rev 4:4, etc.) and man, let’s look further into the word “angels” because you may be surprised to find out they can also be mankind.
The Hebrew word for angels is malak, meaning ambassador, angel, king, messenger. From an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. An angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher) -- ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
In Greek it is the word aggelos, which means angel, messenger. From aggello (probably derived from ago; compare agele) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor -- angel, messenger.
So, at least you can see that "angels" are messengers and can be humans (kings, prophets, priests, teachers, pastors). This is why John is told to write to the “angels” of the seven churches in Rev 2:1, etc. Also refer to Malachi 2:7 (malak: messenger).
Though we are told in Mat 22:30 that we will be "as the angels in heaven", this is in regard to marriage and does not mean we are spiritual angels. 1 Cor 6:3 states "Do you not know that we will judge angels?"
CONCLUSION
I believe YHVH (Yehovah) the LORD is the Creator of and Authority over all things. He is the Holy Spirit and His only begotten Son is Yehovah, the Great "I AM" in the flesh. The Bible says many times that God is invisible and I believe, throughout eternity, His visible image was and is and always will be the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you believe Yeshua (Jesus) is YHWH (Yehovah), the LORD? Consider the Greek word for Yehovah is Kurios.
1 Cor 12:3 states, "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord [Kurios/Yehovah],' except by the Holy Spirit."
Rom 10:9 states, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [Kurios/Yehovah], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Did you know Jesus raised Himself from the dead? Read John 2:19 "in three days I will raise it up" (also see John 10:17-18).
In conclusion, we can see that the LORD God (Elohim) is exceedingly great and merciful to include His heavenly host and mankind (by faith in Him) into His body/family (elohim). This is simply amazing!
- Eph 3:14-15 "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name."
Hopefully, you can better understand why there are two teachings about who God was speaking to when He contemplated the creation of man. I believe the second teaching for the reasons given; however, both doctrinal teachings have been around for centuries and will, no doubt, continue to be.
For a beautiful rendition of how marvelously man is made in God's image (tselem/eikon), I invite you to read my hub Soul, Spirit, Mind and Heart. Be blessed!
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Only God can create Man with invisible hands, eh? I can't wait to experience the heavenlies! I thank God for you, SirDent. I praise Him for this confirmation from a brother who knows Him well. He is our Creator, our Lord, our Savior, our Father, our God! Amen!!! God bless you, brother!
Excellent Hub and filled with much wisdom and insight, one which I have placed into top priority study on...He is a God that touches us all.
Blessings
Quill, I'm thankful you came by to read and will study further on this as well. It is encouraging to have brothers (at least two witnesses) confirm the study results here and I pray the Lord bless His Word and bring the understanding to the saints. Be blessed!!
JD, a very detailed and through study. One can therefore consider an individual's 'self-image' if you will. It is how that person sees themself. Being consistently downgraded by others can tear up your personal 'self-image' if you like. Although we can flip the definitions of 'image' according to the manifestations discussed above, a human being begins to see themselves totally different when subjected to variables in circumstances and environments.
Unchained Grace ~ AMEN. We can see ourselves in the flesh or we can see ourselves as God sees us, in the Spirit. Likewise, the "world" (unsaved or carnal) will see us in the flesh, but the brethren (saved or spiritually-discerning) will see us as God does.
Consider Romans 7:16-17 "But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."
And look at Romans 7:24-8:1 "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Be blessed, brother!!
Blessed to have read this! Thank you!
I'm blessed you came by to read, BL Tween! Thank you!! Praise God!!
Great Hub!! Two thumbs up as usual!! Wonderful food for thought here J.D. as you've done an extensive study....and have dug deep. It will take some studying on my part to form an opinion as I've always been taught in the same way as godpreacher. But I truly enjoyed the read, very enlightening and thought provoking, and as you stated, we may not know these mysteries until we see Jesus face to face. What unfathomable magnificence we have to look forward to!! Amen!
Hi brother peacenhim! AMEN ~ I couldn't have stated it better myself! Thank you for coming by to read ~ gives us some steak to chew on (tender, of course) :-) God bless you as we are continually growing in Him.
As we spoke yesterday, I maintain the closer we get in our mind to "seeing" God as ONE God the better we are. Whether God's nature included a second "voice or persona" from eternity past is unsure from all my scanning. But one thing is for sure. God created the heaven and the earth. God provided for my salvation for dying for my sins. God came to earth to be seen and crucified by men. Knowing that the Holy Spirit is God, and The Son is God, and Yahweh the Father is God is the important thing. The fact that the Elohim contains angels as well doesn't alter the fact that God is to be praised for our salvation and that God is to be glorified for suffering and dying in our stead. At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things both in heaven and on earth and under the earth. I don't have to allow the nature of God which will continue to be a mystery to all of us until we get to heaven and we will see Him as He is - get me into a tizzy. That statement alone, "We do not know what we will be - we will see Him as He is" gives us the hint that there is more to God than can be expressed in our human terms. There will be more to us than we can express as well. It is amazing that such an eternal concept was revealed to us and that as intellectual as humans can get - God will still be above it. I praise God that you are the kind of sister in Christ that you are. You allow God to speak to you. You dig into the word and allow it to by your sole rule of truth and practice. You care for all of us on Hubpages like your very own congregation. You are my sister and my friend and I love you.
Hi Brother Bob! AMEN. I so appreicate the counsel back and forth as this hub was not an easy one to write ~ in fact, I think it was the most difficult! The "trinity" doctrine has been all over the map and because of so much confusion, many reject Christianity altogether. May we grow in our revelation of God and be comforted that we are made in His image ~ an image that encompasses so many fascets! You are a blessing to me as my brother, and I love you with His love ~ always.
This is an interesting study and I'm glad you did it because I haven't seen any hubs like this one yet. You really made me contemplate how God made humans in general and I thank you for that. God Bless!
thecatholicexpert, The Bible clearly states that God is invisible, however He speaks throughout the Word as though He has a being, just like we do in the following passages:
Back parts: Exodus 33:23.
Eyes: Amos 9:8.
Ears: Isaiah 5:9, 59:1, James 5:4.
Nose: Job 4:9, Isaiah 65:5.
Mouth: Isaiah 1:20, Micah 4:4, Matthew 4:4, Job 40:9.
Voice: Exodus 19:19.
Face: Genesis 19:13, 1 Samuel 26:20.
Arms and hands: Job 40:9, Psalms 44:3, 77:15, 89:10+21, 136:12, Jeremiah 21:5.
Finger: Exodus 8:19, 31:18, Deut. 9:10, Luke 11:20.
Feet: Nahum 1:3, Zechariah 14:4, Revelation 1:15-16.
Inward parts: Isaiah 16:11.
God did manifest Himself as a human angel to Abraham, so it is possible He took on some physical form in creating Man, for in our intellect, it would be impossible for a spirit-being to literally pick up earth and form a human being...it's simply a miracle to think all of our various parts: flesh, bones (and marrow), muscles, nerves, organs, veins, blood, etc. were made from the earth.
Gen 3:8 states that Adam and Eve heard the sound of Him "walking", which is the Hebrew word halak (meaning to go, come, walk, but mainly ALONG). This, too is a mystery.
At least this gives us some deep things to ponder!! God is fascinating and miraculous!! Be blessed!!
Beautifully done! I surely enjoyed reading your exposition. You'll get no argument from me. You've got your bases covered, your research has been diligent, and your have thought it all through. Thank you.
Coming from you, James, I am honored you confirm this study. This was a brain twister for even me...our finite minds sometimes have a hard time grasping spiritual revelations. Of course, your intelligence is evident in your writing!! I wish I was more like you ~ but, God made me in His image, as part of His body, and I am thankful for being in Him and knit together with all believers, elohim!!
Me!? I wish I was more like you!
Awe, you're a sweetheart, James...and a gifted writer (and person) at that! God bless you!!
So well-written, we posted a link to this hub on our site.
Blessings in Yeshua!
Oh my goodness, my holy brothers!!! I would like to let everyone reading know that AhavatYeshua is a Messianic Jewish website whose statement of faith confirmed to my spirit the One God (not three) in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: http://www.ahavatyeshua.com/StatementOfFaith.asp
I then asked them to please read this teaching to confirm and even correct me, if I'm off base. I am greatly humbled by our Lord and blessed beyond understanding, AhavatYeshua. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. May our Lord's Word and truth be blessed forever in our hearts.
Wow, cool picture and good work.
Thanks, sister Sky321! Glad you enjoyed :-) Blessings ~~
JD, Some more interesting stuff.I never heard that interpretation before, but I'll be sure to study it out. Thanks for your diligence.
I certainly wasn't given this teaching by any man; I can tell you that, brother lifegate. How are we to discern, if not through prayer and study? God knows my heart is continuing to search the things of God, for He desires that we know Him, as a bride knows her Husband. It's incredible intimacy. Some things were to be kept a mystery in the Bible, and we certainly will not know all there is to know about our Lord in this life (1 Cor 13:12), and some things challenge us to our very core, for we have 'teachings' we received from men and must test everything we receive from the spiritual realm...by the Word; amen! The Word surely reveals a bit more than I ever knew, and I would be excited to see you continue in this study and share in the Lord's revelation to your heart. God bless you!!
Judah's Daughter, thank God for His working in you. As you say, we can only know the truth by digging into His word. Paul the great Apostle of the Lord cautioned Timothy to rightly divide Scripture. I enjoyed the amazing way you explained how all of created beings are in God as the elohim(many members in one body).
Well, while affirming the fact that God is One as there is just One Spirit and One Body, I think a Christian should not fear to confidently assert that our One God has revealed and manifested Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is a fact, even if it may lead to variant interpretations. It's only important to understand the interrelationship in the One God as He unveils salvation to us from Genesis to Revelation. Whether we like it or not we cannot faithfully preach God without these Three: Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and yet say They are One. I don't think people don't believe in God because of the Trinity, some people don't just want to find God out in His place and discover who God really is and what He demands - that's the hot point. The questions remain:
1) Can we know all?
Answer: No!
2) Can we believe and be saved?
Answer: Yes!
God be with(par)you Judah's Daughter
Hi Francis, and thank you for reading, and I'm glad you were blessed. I recommend three more hubs to you (God just gave me so much to share on this topic), that I pray will bless you as much, or even more!
"Let Me Tell You Who God Is"
http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/Let-Me-Tell-
"ROCK OF OFFENSE"
http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/ROCK-of-OFFE
"THREE That Bear Record?"
http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/THREE-That-T
May our God and Savior Jesus Christ fill you up to overflow with His anointing and love! Blessings!!
Dear JD The trinity of the Godhead cannot in any reasonable way be denied.For when God created man in the beginning he said " Let Us create man in Our image ". "Us" refers to the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.We are not made in the image of angels for angels,just like us,are creations of God and stand outside the mysterious wonder of God.In Genesis the Word was with God ( The Word is Jesus for Jesus said of himself " I AM the Word and he who believe in me shall never perish ".We also have an image of the Holy Ghost in Genesis " the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters "
Your Brother in Christ Richard
RICKY RASPER, I realize you are of the Catholic, trinitarian belief. All I can do is give you the Word and God will have to do the rest, as I pray He open your understanding (Luke 24:45) that He is ONE LORD, not three:
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Gen 1:2-3 “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God SAID, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.”
John 1:3 “All things came into being through Him [Jesus], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us”
Col 1:15 “He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God”
John 14:9 “Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '?”
Isaiah 9:6 “His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”
Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 45:21 “And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.”
Titus 2:13 “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus”
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me.”
The name of God is “I AM”. It is singular. Read Ex 3:14 and John 8:58. I strongly suggest, again, that you please read my hub “ROCK OF OFFENSE”, which will show you who Jesus (Yeshua) is: http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/ROCK-of-OFFE God became a man In order to shed blood, His holy blood, for our sins. When we see Jesus, we are seeing the Father, just as He said.
Excellent. I believe He was talking to Christ, who is the Alpha and the Omega-Amen.
Thank you, CCF ~ Isaiah 41:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Comparing this to Rev 1:8 & 11; 21:6 and 22:13 I'd say He is ONE in the same God ~ invisible and visible. Hallelujah!
Great study, A lot of insight. I love the subject matter.
I'm writing a short book on our inheritance. One of the chapters is recorded in an article at http://ezinearticles.com/?Where-Did-My-Friend-Go?&id=3781158 It will be titled 'Adam! where are you'
forgot to tell you, that first picture in the hub is awesome
Hi Tony L Smith ~ thank you so much! I will check out your article link! I would love your feedback on another hub I wrote called 1 Corinthians 15:28: Jesus Subject to the Father?": http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/1-Corinthian
It's the 'flip-side' section I think you may find fascinating...speaking of our inheritance. God bless you, brother.
OK Judahs Daughter, I also wanted to tell you that this article is the first time I ever heard someone imply that the Son wasn't someone standing there with the Father when God decided to put him in Maries body to be born on earth. That never did make any sense to me.
One way to look at it a man's seed in in him, not beside him before that seed is concieved into woman.
Another way is that our words are inside of us before we speak them. If we are not liars, in which God ain't, then are words are a pure reflection of whats in us.
So God the Father spoke His seed into Marie and created Jesus.
Well, Tony, I was right there with you 100%, right up until the last sentence...while it may have happened that way, I think the bible would have said it that way (ie regarding creation: "God said..."). Rather, we are told in Luke 1:35 that God's Spirit 'overshadowed' Mary. In the Greek, 'overshadowed' is the word 'episkiazó', meaning to envelop, to cast shade, God's overshadowing presence. Other verses that use this word (or variation of) are Mat 17:5/Mark 9:7; Luke 9:34 and Acts 5:15 ~ the latter two have no connection with God speaking. And, really the first two don't either; it was the cloud that 'overshadowed' them (God's Spirit) and then, out of the cloud God spoke.
If you'd like to read more about God being ONE and not two or three, there are some links at the base of this hub to others I've written. And within those are links to more...far too much in the Bible to place in just one hub :-)
Love hearing from you!! God bless!!
Yes, "In God We Trust". Some would say, "In Money We Trust". Great video. Thank you, mrbrent. God bless you.
I believe in the Big Bang. God spoke and BANG! It happened.
another awesome hub from one of my favorite family in Christ.
Praise Jesus,
-Harlan
LOL ~ GREAT statement, Harlan!! I so appreciate you, brother!! I love you to pieces, too!! Praise God indeed!!
One thing I thought of just now as I was preparing chicken for dinner... interesting how I think of your hub the next day while making dinner...
Anyway, If you look up John 1 in the NKJV it says: In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was A GOD. ( Caps mine for emphasis ).
All of a sudden you have another god interjected into the story. It's confusing. This is one of the reasons I have a hard time with what I call the New Profit Bibles, ie., a bible for everyone, teen, mom, dad, man, woman, etc, etc, etc, its all about marketing - which I am working on a hub on it. I also believe it has much, not all, to do with why the church will grow weak in the last days. Certainly movies, music, internet, ipods, etc all play their role too if we are not diligent in the choices we make.
Anyway, I just had to tell you about that verse. Check it out.
- Love In Christ
- Harlan
Yes, we are in the last days ~ woe to them that put 'a' God in John 1:1 (NKJV)!!! The Strongs Concordance shows the Greek definite article of ho, hé, to, meaning THE, not 'a'. The Exhaustive Concordance doesn't even include the article 'a', but "the, this, that, one, he, she, it". There is nothing definite about the article 'a', anymore than a comma is to a period. The devil's in the details, isn't he?
False doctrine wants to split God into persons and definitely make Yeshua out to be 'a' god or lesser god, which would violate the first commandment (Ex 20:3). We are to worship NO OTHER GOD before THE GOD (Ex 20:5). Yeshua is THE GOD and we are to worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4:23; Heb 1:6). We should not marvel, for God knows those who will follow after the beast. Can't WAIT to read your upcoming hub!!! Will you email me to let me know? I don't want to miss it!! God bless you, brother!!!
Wow, Harlan ~ I've been doing some more research since you brought this to light, brother. Guess what I discovered, by the Holy Spirit? If they can translate "In the beginning was THE [ho] Word, and THE [ho] Word was with [really pros = to] God, and THE [ho] Word was (suddenly they use 'a' for 'ho'?) God", doesn't this expose their falsivity? Why don't they just corrupt it totally? Too obvious, perhaps? "In the beginning was a word, and a word was with god and a word was a god"???!!!
Knowing that 'ho, hé, to' means "THE", check out John 4:24, which reads either "God is spirit" [NAS] or it reads "God is A spirit" [KJV]. It's bad enough they don't capitalize spirit (God Himself is 'a' mere 'spirit'?), but indeed, the verse should be translated, "God is THE Spirit" ~ THE Holy Spirit!! Hallelujah!!! Another gold nugget of TRUTH. He is faithful to LIFT the veil! There is ONE GOD. AMEN!!
A Mr and Mrs god maybe, Otherwise A god creates a MAN in HIS image. That's a single gender. Incidentally Let us create a man in our image is in the Jewish bible and the Quran. Our creators may reappear when the Mayan calendar runs down, just not who you expect
Non believer, so I take it you are a non-believer? Let's consider the word Ruach in Hebrew is the word Pneuma in Greek. Jesus said in John 14:17, "that is the Spirit [Pneuma] of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." If 1 Peter 2:22 states of Jesus, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth," we must know that just as Jesus was male and called a "He", He said the Spirit is male and called Him, "He". Jesus used feminine terms such as "she" and "woman" and "mother" throughout His ministry. He would not lead us to believe the Holy Spirit is male, if indeed He was a "she".
Yes, the Bible and the Qur'an have this verse. You will not find a Muslim or Jew that split God into two persons. If they believe He has both male and female attributes, He is El-Shaddai [all sufficient, as a mother nursing an infant]. You probably have both male and female attributes, too. Everyone does.
Adam and Eve were both called "ha·'a·dam" [Adam] as shown in Gen 1:27, meaning mankind. A child born of male and female has attributes (physical and personality traits) of both father and mother. However, the child is still one individual.
Consider the Church (made up of males and females) are collectively called the "Bride" of Christ (2 Cor 11:2). Does that mean all male believers are female? No.
Just as those who follow Christ KNOW His Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God, which the world does not know, we will know our Lord Jesus Christ when He comes because He already abides with us and in us. While the Antichrist will attempt to deceive Christians (Mat 24:24), those who KNOW the Lord will not be deceived. You may follow the Mayans, the Sybil, Edgar Casey, the Hopis, the Web Bot, etc. (which are referred to as 'oracles'), but as for me, I follow only One God, the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope you seek Him with all your heart, for Jesus said in Mat 7:7, "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."
the name of god is yhvh only. we cannot add any bowels so we can read it to yehovah.
Hi andy, in order to pronounce the name of God, which is spelled in the Hebrew letters "Yad-He-Waw-He", vowels were added. By the grace of God, we can say His name. He is holy and for those who accept God in the flesh, Yeshua (Yehowshua in Hebrew meaning YHVH Saves), we are covered by His blood and are called holy to the LORD. We can call Him "Abba", meaning "Daddy". What a miracle! God bless you.
"... go, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit." -Christ, the second person in The Perfect Communion Of Love that is The Blessed Trinity.
Hi Nancy D. What is the 'name' (singlular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? His name is "I AM" (YHWH - Yehovah/Yehowshua/Yeshua - YHWH Saves). For more on Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 I invite you to read my hub, "THREE That Bear Record?": http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/THREE-That-T
Hmmm! I had a bit (a lot actually) of trouble following things. This definition of Elohim meaning angel is confusing. I have never heard this before. Did I get this wrong? Boy JD, you are really challenging me to dig deep and for that I thank you.
Oh, sister lambservant, I KNOW THIS IS DEEP....the LORD challenged my puny little mind with this...and IT WAS A CHALLENGE!!! Look up Elohim in the Strongs Concordance!! I captured all that I could and have to just let the LORD do the rest! IT'S STRONG MEAT; I know!! (Heb 5:12-14). Just take it in and let Him confirm His Word...
Dear lady
Your Hub's Title is the Logicians Prayer ...
Remember, there are things, we can address with Logics ... and there are matters, that can only be addressed by the Soul ...
While Reason, is essential for this worldly living ... Belief, is the Key to our well being in the Hereafter.
Doubtlessly, there are no gods, Except God.
Madam ...
I have waited two days for your approval ... but if you are
bent upon denying The Truth, Thats your problem.
Good Bye
Judah's Daughter I enjoyed your Hub and found many of your points of interest to be intriguing. I can't get away from the scripture that says we are to pray to the Father in Jesus name. This distinctively seperates the two. I was raised that they are three seperate and yet are all of one. I believe the way we are in God's image is that we are spirit beings who happen to live in a fleshly body. When we die the spirit returns from where it came which is God the Father. If we are not born again then the spirit would be of the god of this world who is satan.
Great points that you have made in your Hub.
Hi Shahid Bukhari, I hope you received my email that I have been moving and was without internet for a week. I certainly meant no intentional offense. Thank you for your comment and yes, "there are no gods, Except God."
Hi Naomi's Banner, I appreciate your reading and commenting! Thank you! You stated, "I can't get away from the scripture that says we are to pray to the Father in Jesus name." Can you find that scripture for me? I'm looking at John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." If we ask in Jesus' name, HE (Jesus) will do it! That is so powerful!! What a Savior; What a Lord!!
Yes, we are made in God's image, in that our flesh is perishible, yet our spirit is imperishible. We are still one person. Likewise, the flesh of God died, yet His Spirit is eternal and never dies. This is not to imply our spirits always existed, as God's Spirit (see Gen 2:7). We were created; our spirits had a beginning; God had no beginning; His flesh was 'made' (created)- Ps 8:5; Heb 2:7-9; His Spirit is neverending.
God bless you abundantly!!
I just finished reading Billy Graham's book "Angels". Having read through that study, it makes such perfect sense to me that the "Us" when God created man included God's angels. He would not have created without their involvement in His works. I don't trust my memory, but I seem to recall Graham said he too thinks "Us" includes here God's angels.
I liked your hub, it was well thought out and very well researched however I still believe God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are three separete beings. Members of the Godhood equal in power, authority with the same attrubutes.
All three were manisfest separately when God the son was baptised and when God the son was transfigured on the mount.
Also Jesus wasn't talking to himself while he prayed in the Garden and at other times nor did he ask Why have I forsaken Myself? nor Intio my own hands I commend my spirit!
Hi sister Dee! Awesome information! I'll have to add that book to my library You are always such a blessing to my heart.
Hi ruffridyer, thank you for the compliment. Let me ask you something...when the LORD appeared to Abraham (alone, with two of His angels), where else was He? Did He leave all of heaven and put all that He is in the man that appeared to Abraham? Of course not. Now, let me ask you a second question. If the Holy Spirit is another separate person of the 'Godhead' (the Greek word is actually translated Deity), why is He not called the Father, since He is the Father of Jesus? And thirdly, who was standing on the mount of transfiguration? Was it the 'Trinity', or was it Jesus, Moses and Elijah?
God has always been One God. He is invisible Spirit. God came in the flesh of His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. His flesh existed for 33 years. Immortal flesh cannot die (the LORD appearing to Abraham); carnal flesh dies. The Bible says that God purchased the Church with His own blood and that there is no Savior besides Him (God).
I cover the baptism of Jesus in my first of two hubs called "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" (and so much more contained in both hubs). I appreciate your reading and commenting. God bless you.
great hub...cheer.........to u u have done a very fine job...God topic moves my every where and this one too...
Thank you, moneycop!! I so appreciate your support, and I'm glad you feel moved when you experience the presence of the Almighty God. In His love and blessings, JD.
Wow, heavy stuff, J.D., but the time spent reading your post is well worth it!
I'll be honest with you, I am still struggling with this concept of Jesus being The Father.
If They are one and the same, then how were all three Persons of the Godhead seen or heard at the same time during Christ's baptism?
Why did Jesus say, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not what I want but what You want." (Matt 26:39)
I do not understand how God The Father, posing as Jesus in the Flesh could have a conflict of interest? How could God be experiencing a conflict between His heavenly will and His earthly will while posing as Christ in the Flesh and acting as God The Father simultaneously?
How is it that Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" (Matt 27:46)
How could The Almighty forsake Himself in the Flesh? Please recall that Abraham was prepared to sacrafice his only son, Isaac, on the altar. It wasn't as if Abraham went there himself and lifted the daggar into the air and then paused while he put on a wig and threw himself on the altar before stabbing himself. It just sounds as if The Almighty is displaying split personalities in your scenario and I just cannnot get behind that. Isaac was real and was a completely different entity from Abraham.
How is it in the Book of Revelations that the temple is described as being the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb? (Rev 21:22) "I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb."
Then again, how do you explain Revelatons 22:1 "Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb...."
Why the differentiation? Why the two thrones? Since Christ arose to heaven and completed His earthly mission, why wouldn't He go back to being The Father once He arrived in heaven? Why confuse the matter?
Then again, why did The Almighty say that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven, implying that blasphemy against The Father would?
J.D., I thoroughly appreciate all the work you do and I am grateful that you are a badger when it comes to digging for the truth. But, having said that, you must understand that I am a mere mortal that is trying to successfully navigate my way through the universe, but I'm running into a little turbulence at the moment. I mean well, but I am also not the sharpest tool in the shed, which means you have your work cut out for you. :0)
I just need help on this, J.D., because I am just not seeing it. Please be patient with me, because, I too, want to know the truth, but I also can't take that leap of faith without taking a good look first.
May God grant you grace and thanks again for all the hard work and excellent research! - L.R.
Hi brother, Lone Ranger ~ I hope you don't mind, but because I value your questions and I wanted to give you the best summarized answers I could, I published a hub: "Answer to Lone Ranger: Is Jesus the Father?" http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h
I pray God's anointed teaching bless your soul, spirit, mind and heart (Heb 4:12) ~ I would love to walk with you. God bless you.
I have been generating the whole counsel doctrine of "Substantive Predestination". This position states that the elect saints are the elect angels being born into human bodies when we are born-again. Jesus being the first born of many brethren.
We were foreknown and predestined "substantively". In other words, all saints who would be born-again were born from above from the elect angel population.
Conversely, all of those who are damned through out human history are actually the devil and his angels being born into human bodies. Judas was a devil. Jesus says to those on His left on Judgment Day to depart into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Meaning all those on the left of Jesus really are the devil and his angels born into human bodies -- now appearing as humans externally but actually being the population of the devil and his angels.) Satan, in Isaiah 14, took on a human form as the 666 beast and was a man being cast into the abyss for the 1000 years. All the devil and his angels at this point have been made to become men and are the population of hell.
In other words, the "human population" is not "human" or "natural" but rather supernatural. We are spirit beings. The human population actually consists of two populations being born into human bodies: the devil and his angels (the pre-destined damned) and the elect angels (the elect saints).
The One Person who was not an elect angel, neither the devil and his angels, being born into human flesh was Jesus Christ Who is God appearing and born as a man into human flesh.
Is it possible that God was speaking to the earth
grace explosion, regarding your "generated doctrine of "Substantive Predestination", which is the position that the elect saints are the elect angels being born into human bodies when we are born-again. Jesus being the first born of many brethren", we must go to the creation of Adam. The Word says he was created from the earth and God breathed into his nostrils for him to become a living being/soul (Gen 2:27). Adam fell and thus mankind fell (Rom 5:12). ALL have sinned (Rom 3:23). If ALL fell, this does not align with a third of the angels falling, and 2/3 not. I also do not see any example of angels being 'born again' in the Bible. Those cast out of heaven will never return to heaven (Rev 12:8-9). Man can repent and receive forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ and a regenerated life (evidence of faith) - John 3:16; 1 John 1:9. While we are 'as the angels' after this life (Mat 22:30), I do not believe we are angels at all. The Bible says we will judge the angels (1 Cor 6:3).
Are you of a Mormon root? The Bible already covered the fact that angels do not copulate - there is no marriage in heaven (Mat 22:30). The fallen angels that DID take on human form and copulate with human women were judged to the deepest abyss of Hades (Tartaroo) and are there to this day. Jesus was not born in heaven any more than you or I were born in heaven. He is Almighty God, the Creator. Predestination is in the Mind of God - consider David's statement in Ps 139:16 "Your eyes have seen my unformed substance [speaking of the womb]; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them."
I do believe Judas was a devil, as Jesus said. It is the Greek word 1228 'diabolos' - false accuser, devil, slanderer. Satan entered into him just before he betrayed Jesus, so in this case, he was not Satan himself (Luke 22:3). Isaiah 14 is not speaking of Satan, but the king of Babylon (a cherub) - aka the Antichrist to come. Just as Judas was not Satan himself, he is called the 'son of perdition/destruction' (John 17:12); likewise, the Antichrist/end-time king of Babylon is called the 'son of perdition/destruction' (2 Thes 2:3). Satan (aka the Dragon) gives the Antichrist his power, but is not the 'son of perdition' himself (Rev 13:4). If you cross-reference this with Rev 17:13, the Dragon is the ten-horned beast, which are leaders/kingdoms, who give power to the beast (the Antichrist). Satan definitely works through people, just as God works through people. It does not make the people Satan himself, anymore than God Himself.
You have spoken of the millennia in past-tense? I believe the prophesies of the Antichrist and false prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years has not yet happened. Christ is to reign on earth during this period. If you don't believe in a literal return of a visible Christ, then you must not believe in His literal, visible ascension to heaven, for He will return as He left (Acts 1:11).
Yes, I agree that Jesus Christ is God appearing and was born as a man into human flesh. What you wrote was interesting, yet there's no way I could accept it as sound doctrine.
Hi dante, the earth was created by God (Gen 1:1) and His Word was spoken to create all things, except Man. The Word was to 'elohim' can definitely mean the Word was to Man, for He came to us in the flesh, and by His Word, Man is given faith (by the hearing of it - Rom 10:17), thus being 'born again' (those who reject the Word remain a lost creation, not a 'new' creation).
We are to worship God alone (Mat 4:10; Ex 20:3) , and not His creation, including the earth - the earth is not 'elohim'. Rom 1:25 states "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen." We don't even worship the 'man', Jesus, but we worship Him because He is God, the Creator of all things, incarnate and is the LORD, the Holy Spirit we have received as believers: 2 Cor 3:17 "Now the LORD [Kurios/Yehovah - YHVH] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is liberty."
May we worship Him alone in Spirit and Truth (John 4:23). Amen.
grace explosion, so, I used to be either an elect angel or one of the devil's angels?
How do I know which?
And why should I listen to Judah's Daughter preach the gospel message? I mean, if I'm one of the devil's angels, I have no hope, right? Then I might as well fornicate with human women as I did when I was one of the devil's angels.
lionswhelp, once again I won't post your comment. I will say I am addressing the fact that you believe the Father (male) begat the Son (male) with the Holy Spirit (female). This is the WORST Trinitarian doctrine out there, I think. For those who don't know, this is called 'Egalitarian'.
Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If you are a female, is your spirit male (or vise versa)?
2. Is the Father considered a male or female?
3. Who is LORD?
4. How many LORDs do you worship?
Thanks JD. This is Jesus Christ doctrine . I got it from Him in the Bible. I already gave you the verses. i also found another Messianic Church that teaches the same thing as Moshe Joseph Koniuchowsky.
I understand why you are upset me with because some of the people you write to would be horrified to see you got your teachings from Arians of the 4th Century. I know how you must reason. I was once part of the WCG and they were into a Binitarian understanding of two Gods. It just doesn't work. I didn't ask for Jesus teaching of Three. The Holy Spirit taught me and our Heavenly Father confirmed it to me on a one on one counsel moment. I was set to move on to another old agenda. I don't mean to seem super critical of you. I wish I was a prolific writer like you. I have to struggle with what I write. However, Ruach HaKadosh keeps after me. Thats why I keep after you at times. You are a good writer.
Its nice of you to advetise CBE books. There are so many Christians on different pages these days.We do not always agree but I agree with you on Biblical equality anyway.
Have you checked out the Back to Jerusalem Mission field yet. There are over 200 million Chinese Christians and about two thirds of them are women in House churches carrying the bulk of Christ's work today. Most are Trinitarians, I think , but not sure yet but whatever they are getting the Work done.i might write and article on them in the future. Have a nice day.
lionswhelp, I mean you no harm; I love that we agree on the Liberty for Women in Christ. I realize you know God as you understand Him. If you knew any differently, you would believe differently. I will pray for you and please pray for me. The Truth will prevail.
My understanding of Arian theology is that there are two in the 'Diety'; Jesus as a lesser god or something of that nature. I believe in only One God; therefore, Arianism and Modalism are not the same. I do NOT believe God is three distinct or separate 'persons', each not the other. There is ONE LORD, as Eph 4:5 declares. YHVH is The Father. Jesus is YHVH. YHVH is The Spirit. We serve and worship only YHVH, Who is The LORD.
I don't know what 'CBE' books are. Acronyms can mean anything: Christians for Biblical Equality or Council of Biology Editors...lol. I assume you mean the former? Either way, we are all ONE, when we are IN Christ Jesus (Gal 3:28).
God (YHVH) is The Spirit (John 3:24) and His worshippers must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. No one can say Jesus is YHVH (the LORD), except by The Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3). YHVH (the LORD) is The Spirit, and where The Spirit of the LORD is, there is Liberty!! (2 Cor 3:17) Amen.
Well, I will keep praying for you as you request. My wife and I take everything God does seriously but with a touch of humor. I never claimed to be the brightest light bulb in the room, 1 Corinthians 1:3-31. But it is Ruach HaKadosh who increases my wattage. And when Jesus sees what the Holy Spirit is doing in me He comes along and motivates me to be bold as a young lion, Romans 8;226-27;2:9-11, Proverbs 28:l. Have a nice Sabbath Day.
Wouldn't you be shocked to discover the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ, lionswhelp!!
lionswhelp, perhaps you should start a forum on this topic, rather than continue with this subject here. I didn't post your whole comment, as it's babble. I will quote a portion of what you said here and respond: "Would yu be shocked to find out that the Father is also a Holy Spirit named Yahovah, That Jesus is a Holy Spirit named Yeshua and that the Spirit is also a Holy Spirit named Ruach HaKadosh. Only God is Holy."
Yes, the LORD (YHVH) is The Spirit (2 Cor 3:17)! There is only ONE LORD (Eph 4:5), not three Holy Spirits!!!
Blackandgoldjack, we are spiritual beings in a temporal world. You are either a sinner or a saint. If a sinner, the Bible states that you will to do the will of your father. Your "impetus" for heinous acts and deeds and sins is not that I "told you" that you are either (right now and prior to birth here) an unholy or holy angel. You act according to nature. As for we who are saints, and thus elect angels, our spirits are born of God and we will to do the will of God our Father. We walk in His Spirit. But, if you are a sinner (and reprobate thus a devil) you do always the will of your father the devil.
John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
As you note, Jesus is speaking of "pre-existent" state of being. God's children (the saints, the sheep, the elect, the holy angels in spirit) hear Jesus and do the Father's will by His Spirit. But, the devil's children cannot hear Jesus and do the will of their father the devil. Pre-existent state of being manifesting into the earth realm.
I didn't write the Bible. I'm just reporting what it says.
So, don't shoot the messenger.
You are not reporting what my Bible says, grace explosion. Far from it.
The general teaching of my Bible is that: God wants all men to be saved, Christ died as a ransom for all, the invitation and call is extended to all, and whosoever wills may drink of the water of life freely.
In my opinion any verses or interpretations being considered must be understood so as to be consistent with what I consider to the general teaching I stated above. Otherwise, I put the alleged teaching or doctrine or viewpoint in my Babylon (babble on) basket.
Furthermore you state, “You are either a sinner or a saint.” Either/or? Funny, I thought I was both. I know Judah’s Daughter is.
Amen, BLACKANDGOLDJACK! See, grace explosion, your very handle speaks of 'grace'. Grace is not needed unless sin is present. The Bible says, "ALL HAVE SINNED" and that means "ALL", beginning with the first man and woman. The Bible says, "NONE are RIGHTEOUS; NO NOT ONE" (Rom 3:10; from the Psalms). 1 John 1:8 clearly states, "If we say we have NO SIN, we DECEIVE ourselves and the TRUTH IS NOT IN US." If we were either holy or unholy angels prior to our earthly birth, there would be NO NEED for a SAVIOR. We would sin or we would NOT sin. Our 'predestined' destiny would already have been sealed.
Humans are ABLE to REPENT. The angels who rebelled are already judged (cannot repent), and yet have their work God allows them to do while here on earth (by His Sovereign hand). We can see this truth in the account of 'Legion's response to Jesus in Mat 8:29, "And they cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" They KNOW they have an appointed TIME for the Lake of Fire. They are NOT human. They canNOT be saved. They are cast OUT of heaven; they are cast OUT of humans ~ they entered into the swine. They find someone who allows them IN, just as we who believe, allow the Holy Spirit IN.
Look at Jesus' words in Mat 12! The demons are cast out of a MAN, then because that man doesn't get filled with the Holy Spirit, the demon brings seven more back with him to occupy that man, and the state of that man is worse than it was before!
Man is a vessel. He is able to choose. God wills that man must choose; man cannot choose NOT to choose. He will either serve God or Satan (Mat 6:24). There is no other option. God will divide mankind to His right and left; not North, South, East and West, up, down and all around.
Rom 6:6 clearly states, "Do you not know that when YOU PRESENT YOURSELVES to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" This doesn't mean we are made righteous by our works. Faith in the righteousness of Christ Jesus, the RAM, is our salvation! He is our gracious LORD.
Likewise, Joshua 24:15 states, "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, CHOOSE FOR YOURSELVES today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
grace explosion, I've read your comments to both me and BLACKANDGOLDJACK, and as a responsible writer and teacher, there are some things I simply WON'T (the opposite of WILL) post to the detriment of those coming to be fed and filled with the Water of the Living God.
I WILL address this comment you stated: "John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. One is either flesh or spirit. I am not both a sinner and a saint. I am a saint."
Jesus said in John 3:5 (the previous verse to your reference), "Truly, truly, I say to you, UNLESS one is born of water [the flesh = mother's womb] AND the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Regarding sin, read Paul's struggle with it in Romans 7:15-8:1. Be reminded that the Truth cannot be IN a fallen one, a non-believer. With that in mind, may I remind you of 1 John 1:8 (please open your ears) "If WE say that WE HAVE NO SIN, we are DECEIVING OURSELVES and the Truth is not IN us."
You started off by saying, "Dear Judah's Daughter, I think you are a saint well gifted of God to receive revelation. God is speaking to my heart to be quiet and still and pray. He wills for me to wait to respond." I think you should CHOOSE to obey the LORD, amen.
Hi Judah's Daughter,
Thank you for examining the scriptures thoroughly and with an open mind. This has challenged me to the core, and I haven't read all of your post yet. But, I have a problem with accepting that God is not three persons in one being, and one that other religions share:
If God is one person alone and is meant to have created us out of love, then doesn't it mean He needs us to express his love fully? Therefore He isn't self-sufficient.
But, if God is three persons in one, He existed in eternal love reflecting his most important quality, being in very nature love (love must be in some kind of a relationship). Therefore He didnt need us to express his love yet it was only out of love that He made us.
Hi rython, I'm thankful you were able and willing to read with an open mind, for that is very difficult, as you have expressed ~ especially because it challenges what 'other relgions' (the latter-day majority) share. Think of how I felt as God was willing to answer my questions and yet, in receiving the answers, I had to choose to break out of the 'mold' I'd subjected myself to for so long. I decided it was time to subject myself to God and not to the traditional teachings of men.
I'm a bit puzzled by your statement that if God is only one 'Person' He isn't 'self-sufficient'?? God ALWAYS WAS; He had no beginning. If it wasn't for Him, NOTHING would exist. Is that not self-sufficient? Nothing has been around as long as He has. At some point, He decided to create the heavens and the earth, then all that is in them ~ He created time. Obviously, He wanted to express His love ~ and to be loved. He could have made us all robots, but He gave even the angels (servants) the ability to choose obedience or rebellion. Unlike the angels, He chose to make us in His own image...we have a soul, spirit, mind, heart ~ to love God and one another as He loves us. He didn't want more servants, but children (Rom 8:15). He loved us so much He became one of us to SAVE us from being separated from Him for all eternity ~ for, sin CANNOT dwell in His holiness and holiness cannot dwell in us without that sacrifice. He is perfect. And we will be perfect, once the last enemy of physical death is DESTROYED. We ARE His tabernacle ~ Amen.
God IS love and everything He did ~ creation, giving life, dying for us and rising again ~ dwelling in us, raising us from the dead, having prepared our eternal home with Him is ALL because He loves. And we love Him and each other because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). HalleluYAH! He IS self-sufficient, but as He said about the man He created, "It is not good for man to be alone", so He created Eve ~ God created a 'Wife' for Himself ~ the Church. God bless you as you continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Truth (2 Pet 3:18).
Hi JD i am trying to understand who proverbs 8:22-30 wisdom is, could you please help me ?
Hi kumba, I take it you are referring to 'Wisdom' with a female personification? Wisdom is an attribute of God's Spirit, aka "the Spirit of Wisdom". Let's look at 1 Cor 12:8 "For to one is given the word of WISDOM through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit..." Here we can see that the Holy Spirit is not 'Wisdom' itself, but widom is an attribute/gift within the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.
We know Jesus was a male, right? 1 Cor 1:30 tells us "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us WISDOM from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."
This Spirit of Wisdom, whom Solomon writes so eloquently about, is of the Spirit of God/of the Spirit of Christ to us, with us and in us.
The reason I've answered you in this way, is due to the fact Egalitarians will try to convince you that the Holy Spirit is female, the 'mother' of Jesus, the 'wife' of God...three persons in its WORST form...DON'T give into that twisted understanding. Satan is excellent at lies - He is the FATHER of LIES. He's given a twist to God's holy Word since the garden of Eden, even when attempting to tempt Jesus in the dessert. He's going to get worse in these last days. Stay in the Light, sister. I love you dearly, in the love of our LORD, Jesus Christ.
Hi kumba, I take it you are referring to 'Wisdom' with a female personification? Solomon was given the gift of wisdom and poetically wrote about his intimate relationship with the LORD. Wisdom is an attribute of God's Spirit, aka "the Spirit of wisdom". Let's look at 1 Cor 12:8 "For to one is given the word of WISDOM through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit..." Here we can see that the Holy Spirit is not 'wisdom' itself, but wisdom is an attribute/gift within the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.
We know Jesus was a male, right? 1 Cor 1:30 tells us "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us WISDOM from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."
The reason I've answered you in this way, is due to the fact Egalitarians will try to convince you that the Holy Spirit is female, the 'mother' of Jesus, the 'wife' of God...three persons in its WORST form...DON'T give into that twisted understanding. Satan is excellent at lies - He is the FATHER of LIES. He's given a twist to God's holy Word since the garden of Eden, even when attempting to tempt Jesus in the desert. He's going to get worse in these last days.
Because of the Spirit of God/Christ IN us, we have become the 'Bride' of Christ, the 'Wife' of God. This is the understanding. He 'knows' us as Adam 'knew' Eve. We are intimately in love with our Creator, our Savior, our 'Husband'/'Bridegroom'!! I can't wait for the wedding feast, can you?
Stay in the Light, sister. I love you dearly, in the love of our LORD, Jesus Christ.
Tank you DJ,the reason why i wanted to know more about that " wisdom" is that some JW was telling me that it's Jesus and that therefore Jesus was created by the True God just as wisdom was created by him.I did not beleive them because it sounded that their jehovah did not have any wisdom at the beginning so he had to create one and that one also is Micheal the archangel suposevelly.Just don't sound like truth. Thank you for the clarification, God bless you!!
Hi sisster kumba (I assume you a sister, but if you are a brother, please forgive me) ~~
Jehovah's Witnesses ARE off their rocker. Truth is, 'Jesus' was created, in the sense of being in the womb of Mary. The Great, invisible Holy Spirit, "I AM" took on the name Emmanuel, YeHoWsHua (God our Savior) and dwelt among us. Prior to His birth, God the Spirit manifested Himself in many other ways, too (immortal flesh to Abraham, clouds by day and fire by night, the Rock at Horeb, the Angel of the LORD who gave the Law to Moses). He took on mortal flesh to shed His OWN blood for us (Acts 20:28). He is the LORD God Almighty, who was, is and is to come.
The Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ are the same Spirit ~ the Spirit who gives Wisdom as a gift, an attribute, to us. Solomon may have 'personified' Wisdom, and female at that...1 Cor 1:30 tells us that "Christ Jesus became to us WISDOM from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption." God's Spirit and all His attributes IN and through His Christ, His 'Person' ~ invisible to visible, hidden to manifest ~ all in Christ Jesus.
Satan wants God dethroned, and since Jesus IS God Almighty, to dethrone Him as a created thing rather than the Creator Himself gives him great satisfaction. Those who do not confess Jesus as YHWH (LORD) are not saved.
I praise God His Spirit keeps you from falling. I will minister to JW, but I will not 'listen' to their doctrines of demons. The Truth is the 'Fire' that gives live; LIES is the 'fire' that leads to DEATH. Don't play with that 'fire'. God bless you always!
Hi JD first of all i'm a sis, was a muslim thank God that HE(JESUS) found me 3 years ago.I was just trying to witness to these JW and they came with this "wisdom" story and others , i thank God (JESUS)i found you because their so call bible translated proverbs 8:22 this way " Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way,the earliest of his achievements of long ago." and they goes on vs 25 saying "Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, i was brought forth as with labor pains." and vs 30 goes on " then i came to be beside him as a master worker, and i came to bet he one he was specially found of day by day, i being glad before him all the tim," they are saying that GOD created Jesus and Jesus created everything else(master worker) for God and Jesus did not take credit for it. I was about to quick them out of my home, but i thought if i can find the right explaination for them and they are saved that will be that awsome. once again thank you, and God bless you.
Oh, Halleluyah, sister kumba! I love you all the MORE because I have listened to the incredible experiences of Muslims that have MET Jesus, our LORD. They KNOW who He is, praise God!
A young Muslim man was walking in a park and a Christian church meeting was going on nearby in that park. While in the park, a Light appeared to him and the shape of a 'man'. He asked the Light His name...the man was answered, "I AM the Alpha and Omega". He didn't know what that meant. The Light disappeared.
A moment later, a man from the nearby meeting walked up to him and handed him a Bible. And, as is the 'traditional' way with Christians, the Christian told the Muslim man NOT to start reading the Bible in Revelation, for it was 'too complicated to understand', but to start in the book of John.
Well, the Muslim man went straight to the last book of the Bible ~ Revelation ~ and began reading Chapter 1 vs. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and then 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” He KNEW He had met the LORD Jesus Christ and embraced the faith THAT very MOMENT. Praise God! Praise God!!
We can compare this experience to what Saul (Paul) experienced with our LORD on the way to Damascus in Acts 9:3-4!!
I'm so thankful our LORD brought you to Himself. You and I are sisters forever in His great love!!! And we will meet this brother of ours one day, too!!!
JW's have written their own 'bible' based on a fallen angel's revelation to their founder. We are NOT to rewrite God's Word! Yes, our Bible has some additions and deletions and mis-translations, but the original Hebrew and Greek give us the Truth. We dig to find it, and the LORD is our Teacher. Halleluyah!!!
I love you too sister DJ , GOD bless you!!!
This is a lot to take in. It totally debunks my understanding, but you have a lot of interesting points...there is so much to learn about the Bible and just when you think you got it figured out you read something convincing like this and somehow you end up at square one again. (well almost square one :))
Thanks for writing!
You know, EmbracingTheTruth, you are living up to the Name. I think about what you've said and how I can relate!! There was a time I had been in music ministry for about a year and I got to the point of being on my face before the LORD, saying "I don't know ANYTHING." I had one more ministry appointment on the calendar for the next day and I didn't want to cancel at the last minute. I just said to the LORD, "I will just sing my songs and go home."
Well, the next day when I would sing a song to the congregation, God would lay something on my heart to say...so I did. This went on for the hour, and at the end of the service I witnessed something I had never seen before in the last year of 'ministry'....every single person in that congregation was up at the altar wanting more of God; they didn't want to go home!
See, it's when we come to that place of saying, "I don't know ANYTHING" that what we DO know is only revealed by Him. It's so different than the traditional 'churchianity' doctrines of men....it is so much higher and spiritually discerned. To attempt to explain these things is a task, but I praise God He showed me to show you and all who are willing. I give Him ALL the glory. Amen!!
SirDent Level 4 Commenter 2 years ago
Very detailed study. I agree with who you believe to be who God was talking to. You just keep getting better and better in your studies.
Off topic. Man was the first creature that God ever touched with His hands. Everything else was spoken into existence, but man was formed. I praise God that He still touches His masterpiece!!! :D:D:D:D:D