John and Jesus: About BAPTISM

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 years ago

no body, Amen brother!

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 years ago

There is no more greater desire of my heart than to please Him and love His children, my brothers and sisters! Hallelujiah! Thank you, drpastorcarlotta, for this prophetic word. Amen!!

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 years ago

Ask away, hct :-) I might suggest you first read two more of my hubs: "Religion versus Salvation" and "Water to Wine: More Than A Miracle". Would you do that for me? I'll place the links at the base of this hub. God bless you!

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 24 months ago

Hi brother, Thank you for your comment. I would just like to point out in Acts 2:38 that faith, which is birthed by repentance (realizing we're sinners in need of a Savior) forgives our sins; not the water. The water is symbolic of our repentance from death to life. Acts 19:4 tells us believers had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed and were baptized with John's baptism of water, as the verse in full context shows us HOW Paul baptized them, by the laying on of hands. If we look at 1 Cor 1:17, Paul states he was not sent to baptize in water, but to preach. If people are saved by the hearing of the word, do you not find it interesting that Paul would not water baptize if it was necessary for salvation? Just some things to ponder. Hopefully, those two hubs will make this picture more clear.

I am definitely FOR water baptism, for we all must repent and follow the example of Jesus. However, I am not supportive of churches/believers that state one cannot be fully saved without water-baptism. Likewise, those who have believed and been water-baptized need to realize that, in itself does not save a person (Acts 19:4). We must receive the baptism of Jesus, that of the Holy Spirit. Each believer and God alone knows when this takes place (before/at/after water baptism). It's a definite, incredible experience.

I wish you a very blessed day, hct :-)

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 24 months ago

hct, of course we don't need to "challenge" the issue, but to discuss, for there are many who believe water baptism is a requirement for salvation. The thief on the cross, however, was not baptized in water upon confession of faith, which saved him. There truly is no exception.

John 3:5 I do not interpret as referring to water baptism. What are babies born of? The womb, which is filled with embriotic fluid (water - i.e. when a mother's "water breaks"): born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. To be born of the Spirit is to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, in my understanding and faith.

Blessings ~~

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 24 months ago

hct, I take it you haven't read my other two hubs?...Now, either water forgives sins or the blood of Jesus forgives sins; not both. God doesn't change; God doesn't make "exceptions". Repentance is the purpose of the baptism of John ~ symbolic of dying to the old man and being raised a new man in Christ Jesus.

Regarding John 3:5, consider the context "born of the flesh" - is water baptism being born of the flesh?; "the will of man" - if baptism is by the will of man, it is not by the will of God. The conception of babies, on the other hand, is by "the will of man". Even Nicodemus interpreted what Jesus said as referring to the mother's womb (John 3:4). One must be born (of the flesh) in order to be "born again" (of the Spirit).

You speak of considering all the other passages of scripture, and that's what's here in this hub. Jesus never baptized anyone in water, but yet He baptizes us with fire and with the Holy Spirit. When the Word says in Eph 4:5, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," I believe that means ONE baptism that saves ~ either in water or of the Holy Spirit (I believe it to be the latter, for it is the Holy Spirit of God that we are "born of the Spirit" and are sealed until the Day of Redemption - Eph 4:30).

Some people believe in more than One LORD, but I am not one of those people either. I believe God is One LORD, and have written a hub about this called "Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS", also blessed by a Messianic Jewish website; for they do not believe in a "trinity", but One LORD, just as the Bible says. Jesus is God, our Creator and Savior; Praise Him. He baptizes us unto salvation ~ His holy blood forgives our sins by faith and nothing else.

We will need to choose to disagree on this topic ~ as for me, I was water baptized and encourage everyone to be also; I see it as a beautiful, public confession of faith (Mat 10:32; Luke 12:8); however, those who do not get water-baptized due to special circumstances certainly should never be told they are not saved. Amen :-) God bless and peace to you, too.

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 24 months ago

hct, yes “Hallelujah”!! God is Worthy of our Praise! AMEN.

Acts 2:38 is covered in this hub. There are too many scriptures supporting the fact that John’s baptism was for repentance, not remission of sins. It’s the Name of Jesus Christ that remits our sins (His blood). Let me ask you something: do you see ANYWHERE in the Bible that states the Apostles were ever re-baptized in water after the Day of Pentecost? I think not.

Do you think Jesus received the Holy Spirit when He was baptized in water? Now, think about this: He was conceived by and literally born of the Holy Spirit, which then indwelt Him bodily (Col 2:9). The fact that God’s Spirit descended upon Him like a dove does not mean He was “baptized in the Holy Spirit”. He also didn’t need to be water-baptized for the remission of sins ~ He was sinless. He did this to symbolize what He came to do: to die and rise again. John the Baptist was a prophet and for this very reason he baptized before and until Christ. Amen.

Earlier, you stated that the man in Acts 19:2 was re-baptized in water. There is no evidence of this. Paul laid his hands on him and he received the Holy Spirit. As I said in the prior paragraph, water baptism symbolizes the dying of Christ (dying to sin of the old man) and being resurrected with Him (a new creation in Christ) = repentance. Salvation is of the heart, not by any material work.

Please give scriptural references as to your statement, “Whenever the apostles went preaching, they preached that water baptism was for the remission of sins.” If all you have is Acts 2:38, that isn’t a strong enough verse by itself. It must be confirmed.

In your other comment on “Water to Wine: More Than A Miracle”, you referenced 1 John 5:8. I will quote to you here as I wrote there in response: “Let’s talk about water and blood and how it correlates with being ‘born of the flesh’ and ‘born of the Spirit’ ~ they are directly aligned. We are born of our mother’s womb (water) and born again by the blood of Christ (forgiveness of sins). Because of this, God’s Spirit (aka the Spirit of Christ) now indwells us and seals us. These are the three that bear witness. Jesus was born of the flesh (water), shed His blood on the cross (forgiveness of sins) and sends us the indwelling of His Spirit. The gospel simply stated.”

Who told you ‘One Baptism’ means ‘only one correct baptism of water’? There’s only "one baptism", and that is of the Spirit (being born again)…the baptism of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the scripture is not true; there would be "two baptisms" AND the baptism of the Spirit would then be "incorrect", according to your logic. Blessings to you :-)

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 13 months ago

The saints of God (and that includes YOU) rejoice, brother Dave! You have repented of false doctrine and have obediently chosen to abide in God's Word. His Spirit is faithful to deliver those who truly seek Him and you have and are. You will be receiving the baptism of repentance, making that public confession of faith before the saints (called 'elohim' in Ps 8:26/John 8:24)!!

There is one baptism by John and one by Jesus ~ that is, the baptism of fire, of the Holy Spirit. As you can see in this hub, the baptism of Jesus can happen prior to, at or after water baptism. It is a total immersion in His Spirit. He fills you to overflow; your will is completely submitted to His, just as the Son of God did the will of the Spirit of God in Him, His Father.

God truly came in the flesh, the Son, and we rejoice in the fact He has THE NAME, "I AM" ~ Yeshua is the name above all names, whereby we must be saved. God is our Savior and LORD (Is 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4; Acts 4:2). Verses on God our Savior: http://75.102.32.213/search?access=p&entqr=0&outpu

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Hallelujah!

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 13 months ago

PRAISE GOD, brother Dave! I use this Bible tool like food and water, for spiritual survival against false doctrines that have and are yet flooding the Church. There are tabs there, so when you open a verse and want to see the Hebrew or Greek words and their meanings, just click on 'Hebrew' or 'Greek' and the whole verse, word by word will be there. Then, you can click on a word within that verse to see it's meaning in the original lanugage(s).

2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

The 'Parallel' tab will take you to a verse shown in all the available translations of the Bible; the search box is where you can type in a phrase such as "God and Savior" (as I did for you) to bring up all the verses that contain that phrase. It's AWESOME!!!

I have a hub called "How To Do An Inductive Bible Study" that may be of help to you as well: http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/How-to-do-an . I love you in the love of the Lord!!

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 months ago

TED, you stated, "Another reason why the thief did not have to be baptized was because he was still under the law, this was before the Church was born, so baptism was not a requirement as yet."

Per the link provided below:

"John's baptism was an adaptation of the mikvah, or ritual immersion bath, that had been part of Jewish life for generations and symbolized a spiritual cleansing. It was used to consecrate a new beginning. Jewish men took a mikvah each Sabbath. Women took a mikvah after each monthly period. On Yom Kippur the High Priest took 7 mikvot (plural of mikvah) during the ceremonies. Jesus came to John for a mikvah at the beginning of His ministry.

The reason John had people take a mikvah was to show that they had changed their minds (repented) about their need for a Savior and were taking a new direction regarding their salvation. No longer would they focus on keeping the Law but would look instead to the coming redeemer whose arrival John was announcing. Once Jesus came, John's baptism of repentance was no longer needed, so it became a symbol of the believer's death and re-birth."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_John_the_Baptist

You said, "it clearly says in Acts 19:5 after they heard Pauls explanation, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. and then, after that, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. So they were already baptized unto Johns baptism, and after hearing from Paul, they were baptized again, this time in the Name of Jesus."

That passage mentions nothing about being re-baptized in water. Paul simply laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If baptism were necessary for salvation, why would Paul say in 1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."

It is NOT the water that cleanses us, as the Jewish Law practiced; it is the cross of Christ that does so. We should be exhorted not to put such value on mere water.

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 months ago

Ted,

You’ve been quite indoctrinated, inserting things the Bible does NOT say. For example, “Baptism is also called the circumcision of Christ”. It is NOT. Romans 2:29 clearly states, “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.”

You asked, “Why would he [Paul] ask them how they were baptized if baptism was not necessary?” BAPTISM is NECESSARY; just NOT the baptism of WATER, but the baptism of FIRE (the Holy Spirit), which is OUR imputed righteousness (as the burnt offering of the Old Testament). This is the baptism that “now saves us”. There is ONE (1) LORD, ONE (1) FAITH AND ONE (1) BAPTISM (Eph 4:5).

You just stated correctly, “Paul explained John's baptism in water unto repentance” and “Very true that the water itself does nothing to cleanse us spiritually.” THEN you said water baptism “was For the Remission of sins. Jesus made it a requirement to obtain remission of sins. It is the obedience to the command to be baptized that gets our sins washed” (incorrect)…then you correctly state “in His blood”.

Read Acts 2:38 in sections: “(Repent and be baptized), every one of you, (in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins). And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit = baptism of fire.

Speaking of “eight souls were saved by water”, did Noah ever get buried in actual water? NO! Did the Red Sea ever bury the Israelites where they had to come up out of the water? NO! Who was their Savior? The LORD and He alone.

You rightly stated, “Here Peter makes it clear that it is not the water or the washing of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” Does water have anything to do with a good conscience toward God? NO! As you can see in this hub, multitudes received the baptism of fire (the Holy Spirit) BEFORE and AFTER being water-baptized.

You don’t think water baptism was a REQUIREMENT for salvation in the Jewish Law? Do you not think all those listed in Hebrews 11 were saved by faith? The Way of salvation has ALWAYS been the SAME ~ by FAITH. God fore-ordained His death on the cross at the consummation of the ages (Heb 9:26). Why would Moses (who DIED) be standing with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, if he wasn’t officially ‘saved’? Come on, now.

What happened on the Day of Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel’s prophesy; it was not when the ‘Church’ was founded. The Church is called the Bride of Christ, meaning He is the Bridegroom. In Jewish Law, the betrothal is the same as a marriage. The LORD said in Jer 31:32 that He is the Husband to Israel, and we know not all the natural-born descendants are Abraham’s offspring, but all who live by FAITH (Gal 3:29)

Regarding the laying on of hands ~ Did you know that no hands were laid on anyone in Jewish baptism? Each person dunks themselves (face down) into the water three times. They were not permitted to be touched. THAT is the way mikvah was done when Jesus was baptized and in Jewish baptismals today. In fact, Jesus did NOT get baptized for the remission of sins, for He had no sin. He was fulfilling the Law. Likewise, John and Paul would not have laid hands on anyone to baptize them in water.

And ~ what did Jesus do? He never water-baptized anyone. He touched them (or they touched Him) and they were healed. Even in the book of Leviticus, when we see all the various sacrifices, hands were laid upon those animals before they were sacrificed. The Apostles would lay hands on those called by the Spirit to go out in the service of the LORD. Here is a topical study of the purpose for laying on of hands: http://topicalbible.org/l/laying_on_of_hands.htm

I am not against water-baptism. I am against the teaching that it is a requirement for salvation; that without it, a person’s sins are not forgiven; therefore, they are lost. That is FALSE. And, I am an adherent to the fact that if anyone is baptized in water, even the Holy Spirit, it must be in the name of the LORD Jesus.

God bless you as well.

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 months ago

That’s quite a lengthy comment, Ted. Likewise, my answer is lengthy. Ask any Messianic Jew and they will tell you Jesus’ ‘immersion’ was that of ‘mikveh’. Per treeoflifeassembly.com, “Whenever possible, the Mikveh is ‘witnessed’ by a person who goes into the water with the one who is immersing himself. The job of the witness is to pass a small branch of some kind (usually hyssop) over the surface of the water each of the three times that the person immerses himself as proof that the person was totally immersed and that even their hair went totally under the water. The witness is also the person who usually says the appropriate blessing at the beginning and at the conclusion of the three immersions. It makes perfect sense when the Scriptures say that Philip immersed the Ethiopian even though he never touched him.”

In Leviticus, there were many offerings: one was a sin offering, another was a burnt offering. The sin offering, usually a bull or goat, had its blood sprinkled, its fat placed on the altar of burnt offering and the rest of its carcass tossed outside the city as refuse. The burnt offering, a ram, was totally consumed (same as being totally submersed) by fire, which represents total consumption by the Holy Ghost. Jesus shed His blood for our sin and NOTHING but His blood forgives our sin. We must repent and believe by faith in order for His sacrifice to cover us – it’s a consummation of the Covenant. Then, we MUST be baptized in the Spirit. Therefore, we don’t need ‘water’ to cleanse us or remit our sins whatsoever. Water-baptism (mikveh) is an act of obedience and symbolic of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection and our death to the flesh and life in the Spirit, but it is not a requirement for one’s sins to be forgiven. Jesus replaced the baptism of John by baptizing us with the Holy Ghost (fire), total submersion/submission to Him. Again, Eph 4:5 tells us there is only ONE BAPTISM, just as there is ONE LORD and ONE FAITH. How many Lords do we have? How many faiths? Are there TWO LORDS, TWO faiths, TWO baptisms? NO.

Yes, “Jesus said he that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved (Mark 16:16)”, but YOU are claiming this is water baptism, not Spirit-baptism. If water-baptism saved, Paul would NOT have baptized the one who had received the baptism of John again. You implied maybe he hadn’t been baptized in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’, so this is what Paul did. Even THAT is not sufficient. Look at Acts 8:16 “For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

On the topic of dying to the flesh and living in the Spirit, Romans 8 is all about this, yet does not mention water-baptism at all. So, to say “The Holy Ghost does not baptize us into death” is unscriptural. You rightfully stated, “The baptism of the Holy Ghost is\gives life.” The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (Jesus raised Himself – John 2:19, 21) will also give life to our mortal bodies (Rom 8:11). The Jews don’t let even three days go by without a personal mikveh – yet, they rejected Christ as Messiah and LORD. That water no more remitted their sins (nor does it today) than water baptism in the ‘Christian’ church does.

You are ignorantly indoctrinated to think that being “born of water and of the Spirit” in John 3:5 is speaking about water-baptism! Read the context! “That which is born of the flesh is flesh” – “born of water” (literally) = born of the mother’s womb. This passage is about being “born again”. Our first birth was of the flesh. Our new birth is of the Spirit.

So, you are exalting Peter as the “one with the keys to the kingdom”. Peter’s dead. Who has the keys to the kingdom now? The Pope? Is he also the ‘Rock (Petra)’ upon which the Church was built? Get Real. Regarding the ‘keys to the kingdom’ and ‘binding and loosing’, cross-reference Isaiah 22:22 (no Peter there); John 20:23 (not spoken to Peter as the recipient); Rev 1:18 and 3:7 (speaking of Jesus). Regarding the ‘Rock’ upon which the Church is built, cross-reference 1 Cor 10:14 (Petra!!) = Christ!!!

Water DID NOT SAVE NOAH. God did. Water DID NOT SAVE ISRAEL. God did.

It’s fine to note that “Peter COMMANDED Cornelius and house to be baptized.” God’s Commandments did not include water-baptism. The Law of Moses did. If you THINK Jesus told His disciples to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” in Mat 28:19, He did NOT. "The Baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the 2nd century (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 2, pg 263)". In fact, this verse never contained anything about baptism. Considering this fact, I wonder if the RCC didn’t also insert this ‘command of Peter’, their declared ‘first Pope’.

Not once do you ever see the Apostles baptizing “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” all throughout the New Testament. What Jesus DID say was, “go therefore…make disciples in My name, teaching them…whatsoever I have commanded …I am with you…”. Jesus did not command water-baptism (mikveh). He did, when He gave the mitvot to Moses, but that ‘Law’ was crucified on the cross, replaced by the BLOOD of Christ. We are back to the pre-Law salvation by faith alone. Strange there was NO baptism at all of those listed in Heb 11 (pre-Law). I guess they weren’t saved, right? Or, do you support the notion that we are to be baptized also for the dead? Absolutely NOT.

There is ONE CHURCH (Gal 3:29), not an Old Testament 'church' and New Testament 'church'. The Covenant is eternal; the 'requirements' of that Covenant went from outward Law (of Moses) to inward Law (of Christ).

Bottom line is, Jesus NEVER baptized people in water. He baptizes with fire, the Holy Ghost. Mark 10:38 makes this distinction: “But Jesus said to them, ‘You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?’" Surely, they had been baptized by John…The ONE BAPTISM that saves us is the Baptism by JESUS Himself.

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 months ago

Okay, Ted. Please show me how the New Testament Church was instructed to water baptize (the method: i.e. a pastor is to take hold of the individual and dunk him/her in water and pull them up out of the water – it is to be face up or face down…). Nowhere in the Bible is the method of baptism given, other than what we know to be the historical and present way of the Jewish mikvah.

Secondly, you believe whole-heartedly that baptism is necessary to invoke the remission of sins. Let me ask you something. Does the Holy Spirit indwell anyone, if their sins are not forgiven? Can the Holy God indwell an unholy vessel? The answer is NO. Therefore, those who received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water-baptism were already forgiven and cleansed by faith alone = SAVED. Now, in the case of Acts 19, this believer already had his sins forgiven by faith and had been baptized with John’s baptism (water). Does this insinuate that he was baptized in the name of John? I don’t think John was baptizing in his own name. He came to bear witness of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. I thought about the fact that the ‘sign’ of the Lamb of God to John (the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove) did not manifest until Jesus was baptized, so was John baptizing in the name of Jesus? Elizabeth certainly knew Mary gave birth to the Son of God. John knew He was the Messiah and had been preaching His arrival and baptizing, prior to that day. John was beheaded shortly after Jesus’ baptism, so the disciples continued baptizing believers (even BEFORE the Day of Pentecost).

Jesus hadn’t yet died on the cross, so even this water-baptism was not ‘since the Day of Pentecost’, as you claim is when the method of baptism changed. It changed, alright. It was one of the Holy Ghost, from that day forward. During Jesus’ ministry on earth, He and His disciples followed the Jewish Law (commandment), right up until that day at Calvary. This tells you what type of water-baptism they were all doing…mikvah. You stated water-baptism did not become a command until the Day of Pentecost. Water-baptism HAD been a commandment; the ‘New Commandment’ is that we get baptized in the Holy Spirit! (Mat 3:11).

You said, “Man is already born in water in natural birth but to be born AGAIN OF WATER means a second time in water. that is what Jesus said and meant. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, this is why we must be born all over AGAIN, and that includes the water.” That’s your own indoctrinated interpretation. We are born of the flesh in the womb (water). We must be born-again of the Spirit, which is explained in John 3:16 “Whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. Jesus does NOT mention baptism in water anywhere in the four gospels.

Let’s get the three steps right, Ted:

NO#1 Step "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you”

NO#2 Step “in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins”,

NO#3 Step “and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”

John’s baptism is that of repentance. The blood of Jesus remits our sins. The Holy Ghost is received when a person is submitted to His infilling; this can be prior to water-baptism or after water-baptism. In fact, there is not one account of new believers receiving the Holy Ghost during water-baptism. You might say Jesus received the Holy Ghost when He was baptized, but that is a misconception, too. In Him dwells the fullness of the Deity bodily (Col 2:9). He was born of the Holy Ghost (Mat 1:18). The dove was the confirming ‘sign’ John the Baptist was to look for.

You said, “And Jesus did tell them not only to teach all nations but to baptize all nations as well.” You have ignored the fact that the Catholic Church inserted text into Mat 28:19, which includes the mention of ‘baptism’ and the ‘three-fold’ name. Jesus never commanded water-baptism. Jesus never baptized anyone in water. You obviously believe water-baptism is a type of ‘seal’ for the remission of sins/salvation. Water-baptism does not ‘seal’ our salvation. The baptism that SAVES us, the baptism that SEALS us is that of the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30). Those in Acts 18:16 had been water-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus; however, the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them. Likewise, the one in Acts 19, who had believed and had been baptized in water had not received the Holy Spirit. Paul laid hands on Him, in order that he receive the baptism of Jesus, that of the Holy Ghost.

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 months ago

Hello Ted, Before I respond about baptism, let me say I rejoice in knowing you KNOW who God is. We are bonded in Christ because of that faith, praise Him!

Now, to address your response:

You stated, “If Jesus gives someone specific instructions to do something…If Jesus tells me to go and baptize someone…Jesus told them to go and baptize... Jesus said to go and baptize and they went and baptized in water.” Obviously, you don’t accept the truth that the RCC admitted altering Mat 28:19 and the original text did NOT include the command to baptize or into the three-fold titles of the LORD. Now, since you KNOW that God IS the Holy Spirit and Jesus, the LORD is the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17), to baptize in the name of the LORD, Jesus, is to (since the Day of Pentecost) baptize in the Holy Spirit, and that baptism is NOT of water. It is clearly a distinct and separate baptism, as shown in the Word. Trinitarians, who believe God is three, distinct and separate persons believe differently than you and I. We know what One God is and what it means. Therefore, when the Word states in Eph 4:5 “There is one LORD, one faith, one baptism” you should KNOW what that means.

Now, consider Jesus came as the Messiah, Rabbi, High Priest of Israel and for this reason, kept the whole Torah. He, as the One who gave the commandments to Moses, kept those commandments. John the Baptist knew Jesus was greater than he and would baptize in the Holy Ghost, not with water. Jesus never baptized anyone with water, so if this was His command, He would have followed that command right up until the cross. He was, however, baptized in water, witnessed by John, under the Law.

You stated, “Jesus alone baptized with the Spirit; his apostles baptized in water.” You then said, “They [the Apostles] cannot 'give' the Holy Ghost. (yes people received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, but the apostles did not give it)." Absolutely. John couldn’t give it (water-baptism) either. Beginning with the Day of Pentecost, it was by preaching the Word the Holy Spirit fell on those who heard (Acts 10:44). Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17)! We are the vessels to preach the Word of Christ so HE can baptize all who believe.

Let’s talk about forgiveness of sins. How many people did Jesus heal – the blind, the lame, the leper, consistently stating to the ones healed, “Your sins are forgiven you.” He did not tell them to go straight-way into the water to be baptized in order to make that forgiveness complete. Yes, there is the example of the one Elisha told to go dip himself in the water seven times to be healed/cleansed (2 Kings 5)…interesting he was told to go dip HIMSELF – No one had to go do this with him or even witness the event.

Now, if you lead someone to salvation by faith in Christ, are you going to water-baptize that person or tell them they need to come to your church to be baptized? Then, your church is going to tell them, “We will only baptize you if you accept our Statement of Faith and become a member of this church”? If that person doesn’t agree with your doctrines and goes away, or doesn’t attend an organized congregation (baptized into it), he is hopelessly lost? Where is the Church made without hands? Who is the Head of the Church again? Who is the High Priest who baptizes us? That’s the PROBLEM with your doctrine of remission of sins!!

You stated, “This remission takes place in water baptism When the name of Jesus is used.” Acts 8:16 refutes that. You are claiming Acts 22:16 means the water washes away our sins!! Nothing, but the blood washes away our sins (Heb 9:22). Otherwise, the baptism of Jesus, witnessed by John, would have been sufficient. HE washed away our sins; we do not wash away our sins by an ordinance of dipping ourselves in water. For this reason, even the mikveh is not sufficient, nor is the blood of bulls and goats (sin offerings in Leviticus; Heb 10:4).

You contradicted yourself when you stated, “(I never insinuated John baptized in his own name, he baptized unto repentance.) - Yes there was baptism before Pentecost but it was not in Jesus' name." Then tell me, into what name was John baptizing?

We’ve discussed John 3:3 born of water is one birth (of the womb); born of the Spirit is the second birth (of the Spirit) – not “of water again and the Spirit”. That is indoctrinated tradition…not the Truth. Why did the Apostles baptize in water? It is the baptism of REPENTANCE: dying to the old Adam and living as the new Adam (Christ). Repentance is of the heart, then water-baptism is an ordinance we follow to show, as a witness to God and others, that we have died to our old man and are making the commitment to live in the Spirit. This ordinance is NOT contingent upon our salvation. Salvation is of the heart, not of any type of works (Eph 2:8-9).

By the way, Acts 2:38 does NOT have a comma after “Repent”. You want to insert a comma, I suppose as Jehovah’s Witnesses do when Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I say to you oday (,) you shall be with Me in Paradise [on the last day]”. There is no punctuation in Hebrew or Greek text. I think you meant to say #2 is not always before #3, not that #1 doesn’t always come first. If we haven’t repented (#1), the rest of the equation is moot. I agree with #2 and #3 being transposed in biblical accounts; however, that baptism of water does not need to be part of this equation. There is only ONE baptism and that is the baptism of JESUS, the Holy Spirit. This is how we are “born into the Church” and there is only ONE body, ONE Bride, One LORD and Head of the Church and HE does the baptizing. Amen.

Judah's Daughter Hub Author 2 months ago

Ted,

The versions are translations, not interpretations and there is a difference. The original languages of the Bible do not use capitalization or punctuation and frankly, we don’t use a comma and the word ‘and’ together – but, I’m not going to argue semantics. Nor, am I going to try to figure out whether or not John the Baptist baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or no name at all...

Acts 8:16 is specifically speaking of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. You’re saying a person’s sins are not forgiven (remitted) unless they are baptized in water. My point is, how could the Holy Spirit (the baptism of Jesus) be given to anyone BEFORE water-baptism, if their sins have not been remitted? Your argument fails.

How is a person baptized in the name of Jesus Christ without water? It’s called the baptism of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, though the laying on of hands is not the only way to be baptized in the Spirit.

I want to you to think about something. God does not change. The requirements of the eternal Covenant (and there is only one Covenant) changed. It started out with salvation by faith (Hebrews 11), then the Law was added because of transgressions (Gal 3:19), which was then nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). We are back to the original requirements of the Covenant, salvation by grace through faith.

The 10 Commandments say nothing about water-baptism, nor do they when they are summed up by our LORD who gave them in Mat 22:38-40 “Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

You can quote all the translations about Noah and the Red Sea all you want. I will state again, that Noah was not buried in water, nor were the Israelites. The water did not touch them. Those in Heb 11 were not baptized in water. You may claim this is a post-Pentecost commandment of the LORD, but the commandment is that we must be born first of water (womb) and then the Spirit (by Jesus alone, who never water-baptized anyone), in order to be “born-again”, which means SAVED and SEALED.

I will not continue this debate with you. I will leave this discussion with Heb 6:1-2 “So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don't need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. You don't need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.”