Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS!
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WHO is GOD?
Who is GOD? WOW. What a concept to try to wrap our human brains around! I’ve read all kinds of interpretations of the trinity and some of the scriptures cause confusion as to exactly how we are to interpret the entity of God Himself. People tend to humanize Him and have gone so far as to believe He is three separate persons. We imagine God the Father on the throne; His Son, Jesus Christ sitting at His right hand, and who knows where the Spirit of God sits? On His left? One faith actually believes all three have flesh and bone.
I'm sure you can perceive my frustration (the Spirit in me is frustrated), and thus the title of this hub, "Let me tell you WHO GOD IS". Let’s clear up the confusion. Before we proceed, I'd like to share that I am a saved "Gentile" and wrote this hub in January 2010. Recently, I came upon a Messianic Jewish website, AhavatYeshua and read their "statement of faith", confirming this teaching. I emailed them to ask if they would read this teaching and let me know if they felt I was off base in any way. They not only read it, but posted a link to this hub on their website! Praise God! I pray you will be enlightened and blessed beyond measure!!
GOD IS THE HOLY SPIRIT
First of all, the Bible tells us that God is [a] spirit:
John 4:24 (KJV) “God is a spirit [pneuma]: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Now, beginning at creation, we read in Gen 1:2 “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Job 33:4 states, "The Spirit of God [El] has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life."
Throughout the Old Testament, God manifested His Spirit in the form of clouds by day and fire by night.
Ex 13:21-22 “And the LORD [Yehovah] went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.”
Is 43:3 tells us that God is holy and is our Savior: "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior."
When the angel visited the Virgin Mary, she was told the Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would be found with child of the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:35 “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost [pneuma: Spirit] shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Now, how can the Holy Spirit father the Son of God, if He is not God Himself? He is the power of God and is God, amen!
Mat 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost [pneuma: Spirit].”
GOD is Omnipresent
God is omnipresent. He is not limited to one place. He was both the Father and the Son (God coming to us in the flesh) and yet remained Spirit outside of the person of Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus was both Son of Man and Son of God, and as a Man prayed to the Spirit, the Father.
What scripture proves to us He is both the Father and the Son? Is 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
God's Spirit is omnipresent: Ps 139:7 “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?”
God as the Son: Phil 2:6-7 “Who, although He existed in the form [morphe] of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form [morphe] of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”
GOD Speaks His WORD
Some assume Jesus received the Holy Spirit upon water baptism. Being born of the Spirit, He did not receive the Holy Spirit, for in Him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead [theotés: Diety] bodily (Col 2:9). God, Who is the Holy Spirit, manifested Himself in a bright cloud and spoke, “This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well-pleased.” Jesus didn’t speak here; a voice from the heavens spoke.
Mat 17:5 “While he [John the Baptist] was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said [and as recorded in Mat 3:17 “a voice out of the heavens said”], ‘This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased!’"
So, we also know Jesus is called the Word of God, Who was in the beginning with (actually 'pros' meaning to) God (elohim) and was God (John 1:1). Obviously, God spoke on His own and not through the Son when Jesus was baptized; so understand that Jesus was not God’s Son in the beginning, but His very Word.
Consider that when you plan to speak, you breathe. With that breath (pneuma) you speak. Likewise, the breath of God spoke His Word and created all things. 1 Cor 2:11 confirms "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God." The spirit of man is in him, as the Spirit of God is in Him (not next to 'par' Him)!!
John 1:3 “All things came into being through Him [His Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.”
The IMAGE of GOD in the SON
"Only begotten" means God did not physically birth any other offspring prior to or after His incarnation through the Virgin Mary. The first man was created from the earth; his wife was fashioned from his rib and his offspring came into being by the sexual union of man and wife from then on.
Now, we’ve identified that the Holy Spirit is God. We now have the Son of God (God with us), Who is actually the only human image of the invisible God.
Col 1:15 “Who [Christ Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
John 14:6-10 “Jesus said to him, 'I AM the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.' Philip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.”
FIRSTBORN of The SPIRIT
How can it be that Jesus is the "firstborn of every creature"? Jesus Christ was born of the Holy Spirit and the water of Mary's womb and is called the "last Adam" in that He is the firstborn of the NEW creation. 1 Cor 15:45 states, "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Look at John 3:5: “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’” Well, all men since Adam and Eve’s first son have been born of water (mother's womb). Mankind could not be born of the Spirit until he was made holy. The Holy Spirit of God cannot dwell in a "temple" (body) of sin. The Law of God is that sin leads to death. Jesus said in John 3 that in order to be saved, we must be "born again" = "born of the Spirit".
All mankind dies because of Adam and Eve’s sin. Our own death does not propitiate for our sin. We are unclean.
Is 64:6 “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”
God alone is holy. God came to us by His Holy Spirit through the Virgin Mary to DIE FOR US. He shed His holy blood on the cross at Calvary to take away our sin! Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
Likewise, Jesus Christ was the firstborn from the dead (as in bodily resurrection).
Col 1:18 “He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”
Rev 1:5 “Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—“
Who raised Jesus from the dead? Three persons did not accomplish this, but ONE. Now that you understand that Jesus is God in the flesh, Who is the Holy Spirit, the Bible does not contradict:
John 2:19-21 “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’…"He was speaking of the temple of His body.”
John 10:17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again."
Acts 10:40 “God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible.”
Rom 8:11 “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”
BORN OF and ADOPTED by GOD
Based on Rom 8:11, how can the Spirit of God dwell in us? We know that Jesus was the firstborn of God and told us we must be born of the Spirit, too. Surely, Nicodemus did not understand this concept and asked if we must go back into our mother’s womb to be born again.
Why do we have to be born again? Aren’t we all God’s children because we are His creation? Yes and no. God predestined His sacrifice for our sin from the foundation of the world, in that anyone who believes in Him will be saved (Old and New Covenants). His salvation does not discriminate between persons. While we are His creation, the sin of Adam and Eve resulted in mankind's enslavement to the evil one, the devil. The devil thought he’d won and certainly didn’t know God's plan to make the WAY to adopt His creation back into His family (elohim).
1 Cor 2:8 “…none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua - YHVH Saves) are the children of the devil:
John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.”
Mat 13:38 “The field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one.”
So, how do we know we are "sons of the kingdom"? We must acknowledge we are sinners in need of a Savior. We must believe God came in the flesh in His Son (God's image), Jesus Christ, Who gave His life to shed His holy blood for us. We must believe that He was raised from the dead and will likewise raise us. We are saved through faith in Him!
Rom 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [Kurios - Greek for Yehovah], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”
1 Cor 12:3 "...no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord [Kurios - Yehovah],' except by the Holy Spirit."
Eph 2:8 “For by grace are you saved through faith”
Acts 2:38 “Peter said to them, ‘Repent [change your mind about the devil’s lies and believe in the salvation that only comes through Jesus Christ], and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Rom 8:15 “For you have not received a spirit of slavery that leads you into fear again. Instead, you have received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, ‘Abba! Father!’"
Praise God! John 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
GOD's Powerful RIGHT HAND
Understand that God came to us in the image of Jesus Christ, His Son. Earlier we read that the Spirit of God is also the POWER of God. The Bible tells us that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, indicating there are two persons; however, there is only one God.
What does “right hand” mean? Because God is Spirit, He does not have a visible body. In fact, the Bible tells us He is invisible. So, how can God have a literal “right hand”? This is representative of His power!
Let’s look at Ex 15:6 “Your right hand, O LORD [Yehovah], is majestic in power, Your right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.”
Ps 89:13 “You have a strong arm; Your hand is mighty, Your right hand is exalted.”
Heb 1:3 “And He [Jesus Christ] is the radiance of His [God’s] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
Heb 1:8 “But of the Son He [God] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'”
Look at the alignment, the mocking of Jesus in Mat 27:29: “They wove thorn branches into a crown and put it on his head, and they placed a reed stick in his right hand as a scepter. Then they knelt before Him in mockery and taunted, ‘Hail! King of the Jews!’”
"I WILL Come To YOU"
Thus far, we know that God always was; He is “I AM”. He came for a season, for a REASON. As the Son, once He fulfilled His purpose, He returned to His Spiritual state ~ except that now, He can indwell each of us who believe!
Remember Is 9:6? The Son is called "Wonderful Counselor"! Who is the Counselor, but the Spirit of God?
Jesus stated in John 15:26 “…that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds [comes forth] from the Father,” and yet in John 16:28 Jesus stated, “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to [pros] the Father." Then again in John 14:18 Jesus said, “I will not leave you as orphans [Fatherless]; I will come to you.”
Did you know that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are one in the same? What is the Greek word for 'more of the same'? It is 'allos'. This word is used when Jesus said, "I will send you another [allos] Comforter" (John 14:16). The Greek word for 'another' as in 'different' is 'eteron'. As with the Son of Man, God is now both with us and in us, when we are born again. Likewise, we pray to Him as Jesus did.
In John 14:17 Jesus said, “…that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with [par] you and will be in you."
Acts 1:8 “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
Truly, those who do not understand that the Holy Spirit is God and is Christ in us, they have the “form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.”
Likewise, those who only acknowledge the Father without the Son do not have the Father!
1 John 2:23 “Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.”
John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.’”
Our INTERCESSOR
Did you know that the Spirit of God, which is also the Spirit of Christ makes intercession for us? Are they separate? No.
Rom 8:9 “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
Rom 8:26-27 “In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”
Rom 8:34 “Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the ‘right hand’ of God, who also intercedes for us.”
Heb 7:25 “Therefore He [Jesus Christ] is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He [Jesus Christ] always lives to make intercession for them.”
Let's go one step further by observing the passage found in 1 Cor 15:24 "then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." See, as long as man is flesh (sinful) he needs a Mediator, an intercessor. When all sin is abolished and the Enemy cast into the fire, the resurrected saints will no longer have need of a Mediator. God (elohim/theos) will be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), just as it was in the beginning before the fall. In the meantime, look at Col 3:10-11 "[you] have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is "all, and in all".
WHO GOD IS.
God is Spirit, Who came to us through the Virgin Mary as the only begotten Son of Man/Son (image) of God for the purpose of shedding His holy blood on the cross for our sin. While His flesh died, His Spirit never ceased to exist; and by His Spirit, His physical body was raised from the dead on the third day, the firstborn of the new creation.
Is 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me."
Is 45:21 "And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me."
When we believe this and allow His Spirit to save us, come into us and dwell in us and use us to spread the gospel for His glory, we KNOW we have eternal life. We are a new creation! The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are NOT three SEPARATE entities or persons, especially not of flesh and bone. He is ONE GOD. Isn’t this incredible?
While God is now in us by His Spirit, just as He indwelt Jesus Christ, we are not little 'gods' (divine by our OWN nature), but we are now in God (elohim) and He in us. We are still sinful flesh, saved by the holy blood of the Passover Lamb (Jesus Christ). One day the corruptible flesh will be separated from our saved soul/spirit. We will be resurrected with new, incorruptible bodies and live forever with and in our LORD God. Because of our faith in Him, we are adopted into His family now; Jesus Christ being the firstborn. And when we see our glorified Jesus, we will see the face of God! AMEN.
For more on the Identity of Christ, I invite you to read my hub Who Do You Say That I AM?
For more on the image of God, I invite you to read my hub God: Let Us Make Man In Our Image?
For a wonderful, Spirit-inspired parable to better explain God and His gospel, I invite you to read my hub The GOSPEL In A GLASS. Be blessed!
- THREE That Testify?
Have you read 1 John 5:7-8? This is what it says in the NAS, For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. Yet, if you read the same verses in the KJV we get a lot more:
JD, this is perhaps one of the most difficult things to relate to someone as there must be a belief system in place
to accept it. I would encourage anyone to read and reread this Hub. Then, go back with your Bible open and read every scripture listed. It is something we must clearly understand. The concept of God as a spirit as opposed to a physical body is hard for even many Christians to absorb and yet we must because we will be called upon to explain it one day.
It took me quite some time to "step out of the box" of human understanding before I could grasp the concept Judah's Daughter has laid out here. In the end?
God said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Hi SirDent! Truly, those who do not understand are blinded by the "god of this world"; I pray those who are ready to understand will "see" with the understanding that can only come from God. I love knowing who God is and am grieved to see so many not understand ~ indeed, they box Him into our earthly mentality, yet He created us and our very universe! WOW!!
Brother Unchained Grace, yes, I've had to piece it together and stand solid with all the confusion on the "trinity" out there...even the old hymn that states "God in three persons; blessed trinity". Truly the earthly math is 1+1+1, but the heavenly math is 1x1x1, which is really ONE. How does one explain this in English? Our language is limited, and I pray the understanding is made clear through the Word of God ~ for those who are given understanding. Hallelujiah to the Living God!
Knowing my background as you do, you know that I am come from this background of confusion of the trinity. This is probably the clearest representation of the Doctrine of the Trinity that I ever saw. It led you through the verses without the attempt to "see" Him as it relates to human terms. I "saw" Him in the Spirit. I could see the aspects of Him working and it seemed so natural to relate to Him that way. I think every person that has trouble with Trinitarian belief should read this and refer this to all their friends. This is why I marvel at our Father because He does these sort of miracles in His children. Thank you for being a conduit for His love and wisdom.
The more I study the Bible and pray and see God work in my life and in other's, the more powerful and wise He becomes.
Brother Bob ~ your comment is such a BLESSING to my heart. It means so much because I know your background and how God led you out of false teaching, this one being especially tough. Who God is, is the foundation of our very faith in Him! Do we believe? Do we KNOW our God? I pray this hub touches the lives of many who have fallen victim to false teaching. When we know the real God, we recognize the counterfeit religions easily. God is not the Author of confusion or distortion. I love you, brother. Praise God!
Hi brother DiamondRN! God is certainly powerful and wise, and when we have His Spirit teaching us we will see more clearly day by day! Lord, Jesus, thank You for Your Spirit in us ~ that you teach us still even this day; we love and serve the Living God Who loves us so much!
Halleluiah! Amen! Amen! Judah's Daughter, this hub is really awesome! Yes... you have clearly explained here ... who our GOD IS...:). I love the way you presented Jesus and explaining the verses. It really takes time to know the real God. It took me a long time to know him anyway :)... I came from a background where I got confused of the Trinity... then... God Himself revealed to me when I got born again and really seek him. Now... I know Him by heart and it always gives me so much happiness and peace. Thank you so much for sharing this wonderful wisdom of God Judah's Daughter.
Peace and blessings to you.
Ajbless48
ajbless48, Isn't it EXCITING to just revel in our God? I read a hub yesterday, and finally saw someone who described God the way He is! I became EXCITED and was moved to write, write and write some more on our God! To be brought out of darkness and into His marvelous Light is so incredible! It is unfathomable! And yet, we will still be shown more and more truth the longer we walk with Him and are transformed into His image, for we are in Him, praise God!! Forevemore!!! Hallelujiah!!
Yes, praise God!! Forevermore!!! Hallelujah!!
For He alone is worthy of our praise.
Excellent job! Surely He was with you as you wrote this.
Thank you for your willingness to share this with us.
What good is it to know something and never share it?
Again, Thank you!
BL Tween! I praise God with you!!! I have to share now, that I prayed the night before I wrote this. It seemed such an ignorant question, but I have read so many Christian hubs where people refer to God as separate beings and I was also confused about terms such as "sitting at God's right hand" and so many little things. I asked God to please confirm to me that He is as I understand Him to be; what He had revealed to me...then, I read another hub that confirmed and I rejoiced in my Spirit, just like you!!! I thought, why NOT put it in writing? Why NOT confirm to us that we KNOW Who He IS?! Stand in it, and never be shaken!! I am so grateful for His faithfulness and that this hub is blessing those who read!! Hallelujiah!!! We KNOW our LORD God!!
A perfect delivery JD!! I'm so glad that you covered this topic, as it is a very difficult revelation to convey, especially to unbelievers. Your message here I truly believe is anointed! "Christ is the mighty Power of God and the wonderful Wisdom of God." 1 Cor. 1:24. Thanks for sharing!!
peacenhim! Thank you! AMEN! Christ means "Anointed", and when we utter or write anything by His Spirit, the anointing will be evident, praise God! I love the confirmation in 1 Cor 1:24 ~ the Bible keeps on confirming truth, amen!! We serve the Living God and He's given us His Spirit, which brings His written Word to LIFE in our hearts!! Can we ever praise Him enough ~~ God bless you, penenhim ~ thank you so much.
I love this hub! Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Jesus is God's right hand and the scriptures as you stated represent him. Exodus 15:6 says your right hand oh Lord is
majestic in power", your right hand oh Lord "shatters the enemy" and in Psalm 89:15 You have a "strong" arm, your hand is "mighty". Your right hand is "exalted". I learned much from reading this. Thank you sis and I love you!!!
Hi sis! Jesus is the very power of God, which this hub shows is the Spirit of God, and God is Spirit. He is ONE GOD, our Lord Jesus Christ is His image. I'm glad you learned much from this ~ we are steadfastly planted on the Rock of our salvation. Did you know that Jesus is translated Jehowshuwa in Hebrew? It means "JEHOVAH SAVED". Hallelujiah!
I don't always post, but I do get in and read your hubs. You have a style of teaching the Lord's word that is so very heartwarming! I love you Girlfriend!!! Alice
Thank you, Alice! Love does warm the heart! I love you, too!! Thanks so much for reading and commenting :-) Be blessed!
Judah's Daughter, Wonderful expository "Message" my sister!
This is clear, concise and enlightening! It has illuminated the Spirit within me to REJOICE! God truly is AWESOME!
The Lord has used you here to relay a powerful and much needed Message! As you stated: "Did you know that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are one in the same? As with the Son of Man, God is now both with us and in us, when we are born again. Likewise, we pray to Him as Jesus did..." There for we ask in the name of Jesus "Give us today our daily bread" by which we can live our lives to Please Him! "Let your Light so shine before men and Glorify your Father which is in Heaven..."
Again wonderful! Thank you for sharing, Blessings!
Thank you, dear DeBorrah ~ I'm so glad to hear the Spirit within you REJOICES! The same happens in me ~ to be reminded and KNOW how very special we are to our Lord. What an honor it is to be a part of His family, not slaves, but children!! While here, as our Lord, we are bond-servants, doing the will of the Father and like His disciples, we are fishers of men, praise God!! "Lord, we cry out to You, SAVE YOUR PEOPLE!!! You alone are worthy to be praised!!" AMEN!!!
Wow, try wrapping your mind around that without the Holy Spirit as a guide. I guess I never thought too hard about it as I was always taught The Trinity. You, however, brought it in a whole new light for me. The scripture you used showed just how clear God makes his presence known, how awesome is that?! I just recently prayed to God to know him more and the answer I got was "You know Jesus, so you know me." Our God is such an awesome God that he makes everything very clear, he is not a God of confusion, it is our human minds and the evil one who will try to confuse us. If we stay on the narrow road with our eyes on God life is so much easier, too bad I like to take some turns and curves once in a while. :) This free will thing is highly over-rated. :)
Just to believe in God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gives us the "faith of a mustard seed". To know that He is our salvation gives us a little more. You know what the Bible says that you can do with that little faith?
Move them mountains!!!
Thank you again for another great hub!!!
Hi Tammy! Praise God once again! He is Worthy of our praise! He answers!! I thank God for everyone whose read this hub, as I also pray God brings the increase in that all of us will be able to more clearly explain the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE GOD. It grieves the Spirit (GOD) when Satan brings confusion to this topic, for it is the very foundation truth we need to understand in order to KNOW HIM. You are such a blessing and I'm so glad you were blessed and confirm this truth in Spirit. AMEN!!!
Finally got here to check your hub out. Bless you Sister for continuing in the work of the Lord. Not only is God, the Holy Spirit, but I like to call Him the Great Shepard, The Greatest Physician man will ever come to know. , God can and will heal,when all else is futility. Surrender completely to Him and there will be a miracle. Faith is mighty. God Bless
Another excellent writing!
Hi Brother Artin2010! You know, I was thinking about healing today. I thought about when Jesus healed someone, He often said, "Thy sins are forgiven thee", then the healing took place. Healing first starts with the heart accepting the forgiveness by faith that Jesus provides. Only then can He bring divine healing from the inside out. Praise God for your comment and confirmation of such a powerful truth. God bless you!!
Great Hub,
Love the way you walked us through, including the right scripture to bring the right meanings, so that we could get a revelation and be enlightened. We can call him by many different names, and we know him by His many different characters, and the closer we walk with him, we recognize him as the Great I Am.
God Bless
And coming from a preacher, godpreacher, that's a great confirmation!! When God's Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) lives in us, we are transformed into His image by His character in us, praise God! This cannot be done without accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior first. He is the One Who bears the fruit (the fruit of the Spirit), and we would be useless and fruitless without Him. God bless you, brother!
Well JD I've returned to reread this amazing clarification of Who GOD is. Awesome work. Thats all I can say. In everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving,let your request be made known to God. He has the answers! No confusion here. Thanks be to God, Father,Son and Holy Spirit.
The Vine will grow the more we know!
Bless your heart, brother Artin2010. I, too have to come back and read this hub, believe it or not, for the more material I read by those who "almost" have it right, but are still separating God, the more polluted this foundational truth becomes. I had to put it in writing for myself and everyone else who suffers from this frustration. Thank God His Word is in writing! Can we even imagine how much the verbal "telephoning" of Bible truth would get distorted over time? All we have to do is GO TO THE WORD and STUDY. Praise God!! Thank you, brother; you are a blessing to me!!
The wonderful thing about our relationship is that we have the Spirit that comes up alongside and seals it "in Christ". Thank you for being clay that our Lord can mold. Thank you for the willingness to stay at it with a man that is willing to learn truth from the Lord's hand. Thank you for each brush stroke of the painting of truth. I was never one for art. I back up and see the whole picture but the picture is still the same. Thank you for helping me see the Master painter so that I can give glory to Him. I love you so much I can not express its depth. Thank you. Bob.
Hallelujiah, brother Bob! Iron sharpens iron, amen? The revleation of God is almost more than we can bear ~ it's difficult to get beyond our human understanding of things and open our mind to heavenly understanding. I pray God reveal His truth solidly in the saints so we can continue to GROW closer to Him and thereby be transformed from glory to glory into the image of Him who saved us! AMEN!!
What I like about your hubs, is that, you thoroughly do your research, and give us the meat of the "Word" in milk, where we are able to digest it and we are able to mentally understand the deep things of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for telling us, Who God Is!
Love you!
Hi Sister Royal Diadem! I'm so thankful to know this hub was easy to understand ~ especially since this is such a complicated subject matter, based on so many different views of the "Trinity". Your compliment means so much to me, and I am greatly encouraged to keep on writing about the things of God, trusting Him to give me the words to keep it "digestible". I praise God for you! Bless you!
Hello JD. I found your writings on target in that you consistantly refer to scripture. As I was reading down the comments, my heart was disturbed by the attacks you've gotten. Jesus said, "I will show him (Paul) how much he must suffer for name's sake." And, "Blessed are you when you are persecuted for my sake, yes, be very glad, for great is your reward in heaven." I wish you well. Also, one comment on the blog by Dave Mathews who said a couple of times, with full conviction, what the unpardonable sin is. Actually, in the epistles, the apostle says concerning the unpardonable sin, "I do not tell you what it is lest you fret over it." If the Bible refers to it but insists it won't be told to us, how does Dave Mathew's know what it is? He doesn't. And, the apostle didn't want us fretting over it, so, let's not.
And too, concerning the unity of the Father, Son, and Spirit, Phillip asks Jesus just before Jesus died, "Show us the Father, and we'll be satisfied." And Jesus said, "Phillip, have I been so long with you and you still don't know me? He who has seen me has seen the Father." I think that speaks for itself, don't you JD? So, you've done well. Pam
Sister lawstudent43, bless your heart in Christ and for your words of great comfort and encouragement.
It surely is challenging to give an answer to some that are influenced by consistent traditional teachings, rather than challenging what they've been taught, as the Bereans. I fear (reverence) the Lord in everything I study and write, and rely on Him to guide me in my responses. To my flesh and spirit, this can be draining at times. Your encouragement is like living water to my soul.
I'm unaware of the passage of "I do not tell you what it is lest you fret over it" regarding the unpardonable sin. Will you please share with me where I can find that? All I can share about it is what Christ Jesus stated in the gospel accounts ~ He is the righteous Judge; amen.
I bless the Lord with all my soul to see another sister who KNOWS He is One LORD God. Bless you and may our Lord be praised!!!
Judah's Daughter,
The Trinity is beyond our understanding. As much as we want to explain it to others, it is something we believe by faith. "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what is not seen". My advise to people is don't try to understand God. We are not able to in our human state. Just believe! Trust His promises! Study His word, because in it we have eteranl life. God's blessings to you!
I love you, Kristeen ~ I see God as only one, and that is the way He has revealed Himself to me. God knows the intention of the heart, which is where His mercy is applied. Whether God is one or three is a great controversy in His Church. I will leave the following passages for pondering:
Isa 49:26: “And all flesh will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."
Isa 45:21 “And there is no God but Me; a true God and a Savior; there is no other.”
1 John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”
1 Tim 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
God bless you abundantly.
Great hub JD!
Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
I believe this means the child will be born in ALL of us.
Your hub does so much to prove my assertion that "God" refers to an internal spirit existing within us rather than some sort of external being. Agree?
pjk_artist, I may not fully understand what you're saying. The child born is God in the flesh, Jesus Christ. We only become the children of God when we are 'born again' by His Spirit. The 'sons of the Most High' then become a part of elohim (translated as gods in the ordinary sense, but is used of the Supreme God), in that we are members of His body, the body of Christ, with Christ being the head of His body.
Ps 82:6 "I said, 'You are gods [elohim], And all of you are sons of the Most High'."
John 10:34 "Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), why do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God [Elohim/Theos]'?"
Col 2:19 "and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it."
May I recommend another of my hubs to further expound on this calle "VIM: Very Important Member": http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/VIM-Very-Imp
Be blessed ~
Everything you have said is true Judah's Daughter. God is One. Who can have the guts to deny such glaring truth???
Actually only our realisation that God is intrinsically Spirit can we worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Scripture has revealed this truth.
Are we ready to accept this truth, leave behind traditions and faith-seekingly blow where the Spirit leads us to?
"Such are the men who seek your face O Lord" [Psalm 24:6]
May the grace of God be with you sister.
Awe, Francis, PRAISE GOD! Hallelujah, is the word!! Yes, we must leave behind traditional teaching for Biblical teaching! The Word of God is God-breathed, and does that ever have deeper meaning now that we understand with Spiritual minds! As God's beloved David prayed in Ps 51:11, "Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." We will worship Him in Spirit and Truth ~ He is the Spirit of Truth; He is the Way; He is the Life. He is "I AM"!! God bless you as you go, always and forever; amen!
Beautiful work, truly inspired. Keep up the good work.
Love and Blessings, Troy C.
Thank you so kindly, brother Troy C! It's a beautiful thing to try to capture the Lord's revelation of Himself into words and share it with others ~ those who confirm and those who learn; praise God! I so appreciate your kindness and wish you beautiful blessings from our God and Savior, Jesus Christ!!
The Triune God is not as hard to understand once we realize that God is a compound unity like a family is a compound unity. The error age old objections to the Trinity "How can one God be three persons?" when you substitute the word family for God "How can one family be three persons?"
First of all we do not think of a family as an individual but a group of individuals. So when we realize God (elohiym which is a plural word) denotes not the number of Gods but that within the one God there is a plurality of persons.
Also there are unique offices and acts of the individuals in the Godhead that the other two do not hold or do not do.
The Word who became the Son is the only Creator in the beginning. John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, and here's the kicker... Isaiah 44:24 wherein it says the Redeemer created alone / by himself.
The one who became the Father (the Heavenly Father, the Father of Jesus according to Hebrews 1:5 (notice "shall be" in the text, meaning both pre-existed the incarnation but not in the relationship they entered into in the incarnation) the Father created only the body of the Son:
Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, BUT A BODY HAS THOU PREPARED ME:
And:
John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) full of grace and truth.
One last thing I'd like to point out, the Holy Spirit is not the Father of Jesus. The Father is. The texts that seem to say the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) is only indicate the one who implanted the holy embryo the Father created. Today science has progressed to something similar in artificial insemination. A doctor placed a fertilized embryo into the womb of the mother. But the doctor is not the father. Neither is the Holy Spirit who placed Jesus' embryo into the virgin Miryam.
Oh, one more thing I almost forgot... a Bible text that distinguishes the Father from the Holy Spirit is:
John 14:26 (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
One does not send one's self. One comes or one goes.
The Holy Spirit is also dispatched by the Son:
John 15:26 (KJV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, WHOM I WILL SEND unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The Son is clearly in submission to the Father (John 5:19ff). So he would not send the Father...
JohnH, My response really shoulb be a hub, mainly because I will quote you and then answer you:
You said, “The Triune God is not as hard to understand once we realize that God is a compound unity like a family is a compound unity. The error age old objections to the Trinity "How can one God be three persons?" when you substitute the word family for God "How can one family be three persons?"
“First of all we do not think of a family as an individual but a group of individuals. So when we realize God (elohiym which is a plural word) denotes not the number of Gods but that within the one God there is a plurality of persons.”
Answer: Elohim is a family, made up of angels, magistrates and mankind (Ps 8:5/Heb 2:9; Ps 82:6/John 10:34). There is only one LORD God.
God manifested Himself in five ways in the Old Testament, yet the Jews, who knew Him as ONE GOD, never split Him into two, three, four or five. He really manifested Himself in six ways, but they reject the sixth one.
1) Man of flesh and bone (1 Cor 15:50/Gen 3:8/Gen 18:2/19:1/Gen 32:24, 28, 30/ Ex 33:23/Deut 9:10 (compare to Luke 11:20)
2) The Angel of the LORD (Ex 3:2 – compare to John 14:15/Judges 13 (vs. 22)
3) Who was the Rock in Ex 17:6? We are told in 1 Cor 10:4
4) Clouds by day (Num 14:14)
5) Fire by night (Nub 14:14)
6) Flesh, bone and blood, Jesus Christ (1 Tim 3:16; Isa 9:6 and so many more)
You said, “Also there are unique offices and acts of the individuals in the Godhead that the other two do not hold or do not do.
“The Word who became the Son is the only Creator in the beginning. John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, and here's the kicker... Isaiah 44:24 wherein it says the Redeemer created alone / by himself.”
Answer: The scriptures you quoted are truth. A ‘trinity’ holds this to be false.
You said, “The one who became the Father (the Heavenly Father, the Father of Jesus according to Hebrews 1:5 (notice "shall be" in the text, meaning both pre-existed the incarnation but not in the relationship they entered into in the incarnation) the Father created only the body of the Son:
“Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
“5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, BUT A BODY HAS THOU PREPARED ME:
“And:
“John 1:14 (KJV)
“14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) full of grace and truth.”
Answer: The Old Testament prophesied of the Son in the future. God became a “Father” when He begat the Son through the flesh of Mary. He was also the “Father” to Israel, who was called His Son (just as Ephraim was), because out of Her would come His Son, God Himself in the flesh. So, yes, He became a Father, and yes, He created the body in which He would dwell, as He created all things. This proves then, that the Son was not in existence prior to His physical birth.
You said, “One last thing I'd like to point out, the Holy Spirit is not the Father of Jesus. The Father is. The texts that seem to say the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) is only indicate the one who implanted the holy embryo the Father created. Today science has progressed to something similar in artificial insemination. A doctor placed a fertilized embryo into the womb of the mother. But the doctor is not the father. Neither is the Holy Spirit who placed Jesus' embryo into the virgin Miryam.”
Answer: That is not scriptural, but is a matter of your own carnal interpretation. If I pour water into a glass, does it mean the water didn’t come from the pitcher from which I poured it? Is it not the same water? Is it not possible for the same water to remain in the pitcher and in the glass at the same time?
You said, “Oh, one more thing I almost forgot... a Bible text that distinguishes the Father from the Holy Spirit is:
“John 14:26 (KJV)
“26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
“One does not send one's self. One comes or one goes.
“The Holy Spirit is also dispatched by the Son:
“John 15:26 (KJV)
“26 But when the Comforter is come, WHOM I WILL SEND unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
Answer: John 14 and 15 were spoken while Jesus was not yet glorified. He was still in the flesh, submissive to the Spirit (His Father). Notice, you said the Father will send the Comforter in 14:26; however what does Jesus say in 16:7? “Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” Likewise, as is written in this hub, Jesus said in John 14:18, “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” And, consider verse 16, when Jesus calls the Comforter ‘another’ (written in English), which is the Greek word ‘allos’, meaning “more of the same”.
You said, “The Son is clearly in submission to the Father (John 5:19ff). So he would not send the Father...”
Answer: John 5:19 exemplifies the fact that Jesus was God’s vessel. Everything He said and did was the will of the Spirit in Him, just as we are to do when we are born of and filled with the Spirit. His Spirit (the Sprit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ) in us intercedes through us while we are yet in sinful flesh with the Adversary prowling about. He is the image of the INVISIBLE God (Col 1:15), who is SPIRIT (John 4:24). In the body of the Son, He was the cup that overflows with the water of God. He is the Living Water (Jer 2:13/John 4:10-14/John 7:38). So much….
May I recommend “The Gospel in a Glass”: http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/The-GOSPEL-I
And also, my hub called “1 Corinthians 15:28: Jesus Subject to the Father?” http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/1-Corinthian
I can’t make this real to you, if you are sold out on the ‘trinity’; I was, too ~ until God showed me that He is only ONE God and what an awesome God and Savior He is! (1 Tim 1:1/Tit 2:13/2 Pet 1:1; Is 45:15/ Mic 7:7; 1 Chr 16:35/Ps 65:5/Hab 3:18, etc. etc. etc.)
JohnH.
So, in a round about way, you are saying you are a modalist?
How exactly did God reveal himself to you?
Forgive me if I overlooked it in what I read that you wrote.
Hi JohnH, I appreciate your kindness. Frankly, I had no idea what a 'modalist' was, nor do I really still. Would you please define it for me, in what you understand it to be?
God revealed Himself through His Spirit, as it never came through any man's teaching. I was comforted to know I am not alone. I can't call myself by any denomination either. I just read and study the Bible and stay in tune with the Lord, by His grace and mercy. I do have a hub called "Statement of Faith", which outlines what I believe thus far...I am continually learning and growing, and I hope I never stop.
As I had questions, I asked of the Lord. As He began to reveal, I had more questions. Breaking loose of my mere acceptance of what I'd been taught by man was mind-blowing. It takes a lot of trust, even fear (reverence) to submit to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. In my questions and testing I wrote about it as I went. This didn't happen overnight...
I have some links at the base of this hub, which will link to others. Truly, I never learned this from anyone else, but the Living Word. Thank you.
See, JohnH, whenver I look up 'modalism' there are elements that are missing the mark; it's like non-'modalists' are writing about something they are trying to understand or explain and can't get it. Therefore, based on the varying definitions of this term, I cannot claim to be a 'modalist'.
Basically, God is Spirit and can choose whatever form He wants to and as many at the same time as He wants to. The source is all the same, One God. The best way I can explain it is in how I just showed you the six ways God manifested Himself above, and the illustration about the water. All the hubs I've written on this subject are about my questions, study and answers, doing my best to communicate what the Lord would have me to.
Look at Oneness Pentecostals. They almost have it right, but to only call God "Jesus", when His Hebrew name in the flesh was Yehowshua (YHWH Saves), shortened as Yeshua, is His name: His name is Yod-Hay-Waw-Hay or "I AM". To call Him LORD is awesome, or even LORD God or LORD Jesus (in English). I think they have some doctrinal errors as well, in that water baptism is required for salvation, women can't wear makeup or pants, televisions are not allowed in the home, etc. etc.
When the Lord returns, He will 'judge' (condemn/avenge) the 'world' (Strongs Exh: confusion) - Ps 9:8. He will set the crooked path straight.
God cannot be proved or disproved.
Hi Anne,
Mat 16:4 "'An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.' And He left them and went away."
John 20:28-19 "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.'"
Rom 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
JD as always, I find you to be an excellent communicator and skilled writer. But I fear you are discriminating against the greater body of truth here in this hub, and the others that you have written on this subject.
You are presenting only part of the picture. This hub indeed showed the three different faces of God. But it does so at the expense of the bigger picture. It approaches the God head from a Oneness or modalistic lens. In so doing, you are exalting some scriptures while over looking others.
You position can not explain how Jesus existed separately in a distinct person and form prior to his incarnation. As many scriptures through out the old and new testament suggest.
Verses Such as: Daniel 3:25, Galatians 4:4, 1st John 4:10, 1st John 4:1, Hebrews 13:8
He was a distinct and separate person in his pre flesh form before and after he was in the likeness of man as shown by Philippians 2:5-7 and John 17:5, John 1:1-5 and 14 and and exists separately today in his resurrected form John 20:17, John 20:28.
Philippians 2:6 shows Jesus and God as one God, yet separate in persons. It is a look into the trinity. The verse plainly says Jesus's pre-flesh form was equal with God. By declaring equality, it is suggesting a distinction. If one is equal to someone else, we must acknowledge at least two separate beings in which we are comparing. In addition, It is telling us that He is God for only God can be equal to God. Any other explanation puts this verse at odds with Isaiah 40:25 and Isaiah 46:9 and would no longer qualify as holy script.
I understand the notion behind your rejection of the trinity doctrine I really do. Your failing is that you are determined to express God in a "Yachid" or singular form. You deny the reality that he is expressed through out the old testament as "Echad" a plural form of God. You deny His distinct and separate existence in the old testament virtually ascribing deity to angels in order to support your theology, consequently robbing Christ of His Glory. Just as the JW's do. Just as Mormons do. and a myriad of other erroneous philosophies.
This comes from a misunderstanding of scripture and a propensity to understand God through our limited understanding of the natural laws of physics and humanistic reasoning.
Colossians 2:8-10
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
Forgetting that those things which are impossible for man are possible with God.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one [echad]!
God is One (echad) not three separate gods working together. But nether is he One (Yachid) God who simply morphs himself in to three separate forms.
In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. West Minster Confession
I approach the Trinity Doctrine with an acute awareness that it falls short of describing God. It is simply an attempt by men to understand who, and what God is, from the information we have available. Past down from the prophets, the life of Jesus, and the Apostles. It looks at the whole picture, the fullness of the gospel of Christ, found in the Holy Scriptures assembled and preserved in the Holy Bible. I am currently persuaded that it is the best explanation available. I believe it sufficiently explains how there can only be one God in the Old Testament, while at the same time we see God declared in three separate persons in the new. I believe that this doctrine is foundational and is vital to a sound understanding of Salvation.
In Christ Jesus our Lord
ABR
Hi brother ABR ~ While I fully respect the great information in your comment (rather than a mere rebuttal), one would have to say the same about 'Trinitarian' doctrine: "you are exalting some scriptures while over looking others".
You have stated that Jesus existed separately as a distinct person prior to His incarnation. Daniel 3:25 indicates one 'like the Son of God' was in the fire. Angels were also called 'sons of God' in the OT. We do not know if this was the LORD or an angel. There is only one LORD (Eph 4:5), the same LORD that appeared to Abraham with two of His angels. Gal 4:4 does say God 'sent His Son', but it also states Jesus was born of a woman. He was not begotten before that time. He is God's only 'BEGOTTEN' Son (John 3:16). If He were a Son prior to His incarnation, when was He 'begotten'? I would compare 1 John 4:10 to Gal 4:4.
Jesus was the flesh of God who is invisible Spirit (Col 1:15; John 4:24). Phil 2:5-7: Jesus was equal with God, while in the flesh (two manifestations, thus equal). In the Old Testament the ONE LORD GOD stated clearly, "There is NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME" (Is 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4). Regarding John 17:5, you need to read the first verse of this chapter: "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You". This is the fulfillment of what was predestined in 17:5. John 1:1-5 is explained in my hub "GOD: Let Us Make Man in Our Image?" John 1:1-2 is actually translated, "the Word was TO [pros] elohim [theos - object] and the Word was [the] Elohim [Theos - subject]. Vs 14 tells us that God (the Word was the Elohim) became flesh and dwelt (tabernacled) among us. The tabernacle [material] of the OT dwelling place of the Spirit of God became the tabernacle [flesh] of the NT dwelling place of the Spirit of God. John 20:17 was spoken yet by the resurrected flesh of God [not yet glorified]. Vs 28 confirms that even Thomas confessed that Jesus Christ is both LORD and GOD, the LORD GOD of the OT manifest in the NT. Jesus did not rebuke him.
We have discussed Phil 2:6 earlier, which does not, in any way suggest a pre-incarnate, begotten Son of God. While there are two distinct manifestations of God here: flesh and Spirit...He is not two different 'persons'. You rightly state, "...is telling us that He is God for only God can be equal to God. Any other explanation puts this verse at odds with Isaiah 40:25 and Isaiah 46:9 and would no longer qualify as holy script."
And speaking of "Echad", why then did the Jews only worship ONE God and never had even a slight form of teaching that indicated God was a 'duality', let alone a 'trinity' for 4,000 years before the incarnation of God?
You stated, "...there can only be one God in the Old Testament, while at the same time we see God declared in three separate persons in the new". One cannot understand the New Testament without the Old Testament. Too many ‘Christians’ focus on the NT and their understanding is limited because of it. I suggest you look up the history of Oneness doctrine to realize it dates back to Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35 or 50-115) – disciple of the Apostles, Polycarp of Smyrna (AD 69-155) – disciple of the Apostle John, Noetus of Smyrna (AD 130), Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 135-200), Praxeas (AD 150-220) and Sabellius (AD 180). Then along comes Tertullian (AD 200) “A Trinitarian”, a converted Catholic priest ~ covered in my first of two hubs called "Should You Believe in the Trinity?"
How am I "robbing Christ of His Glory"? To make Him anything other than the LORD GOD Himself is doing just that, don't you think? Jehovah's Witnesses do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as God. Mormons believe God is three separate persons of flesh and bone. Oneness doctrine does NOT believe either of these theologies.
As far as Col 2:9, this only confirms what I am teaching and believe, for the word "Godhead" is literally translated "Deity". How many Deities are there? Only One. The Son was begotten of a woman; God Himself had no beginning. If Jesus had a beginning by His birth, then He was not eternal, was He? Rather He is the eternal God, born unto us (Isa 6:9) to die for us. Immmortal flesh cannot die and without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins (Heb 9:22). Acts 20:28 clearly states, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of GOD which HE purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."
Col 2:8 and 1 John 4:1 is of course a warning all should take to heart. Only the LORD can Shepherd us (Ps 23:1/John 10:11). How many Shepherds do we follow? God is invisible, right? Was Jesus not invisible when He appeared to Saul/Paul? There's just so much...I encourage you to read more of my hubs. There's no way I can put it all into one or two, even three...
I love you dearly in the love of the Lord and I appreciate your heart. We will press on in the faith and know that the mercy of God is with all of us who truly love Him.
Dear JD:
You are fun. When ever we wrestle together, I come away scratching my head. Not in confusion or doubt in my position or doctrine. But rather, wondering how I can better reason with you. How I may better speak to the personal bias of your lens. I am sure you can relate.
I too appreciate your hunger for Truth. It is our mutual love for God's Word and our search for sound doctrine that allows me to hope, to take a chance and challenge you to a wrestling match. It is why I make my occasional appeals to you to reconsider different aspects of your faith. Not that I am "the end all, know all" truth machine, I recognize that I have not arrived. However hope to add to your understandings the Truths that have brought me security and stability in my Christian walk. it is my hope that you and I will come to a deeper understanding that agrees with out polluting God's Word. I too am striving, endeavoring to better understand who God is. It is in this light that I make my appeals realizing that when we wrestle we become stronger. But if nether you or I are not open to learning then we wrestle in vain. I have no desire to reason with out purpose. I am looking for productive reasoning, Not a chasing after the wind.
I believe that Truth absorbs truth and exposes lies. When we are dealing with pure truth our positions will agree. Where we contradict each other, False hood is present. I have come to understand that It is only through the unity of Truth can we know we have found God's lens.
With this in mind let us agree that God's perspective is sovereign when understanding truth. His lens is the one through which we can view, with clarity, the Bible. We must be able to know when we have found God's lens. We as teachers, must be able to rightly divide the Word of God using God's perspective.
Having said all of that I am able to agree with you that there is only one God. (Duet 6:4) That there is only one Lord (Eph 4:5). That the Son was indisputably begotten of a woman and that he is God's only begotten Son (Gal 4:4 and John 3:16.) He is without a doubt the image of the invisible God (Co1:15) And indeed God is Spirit (John 4:24) Indeed, there was only One God in the Old testament and certainly there was only one God in the new, and there is only one God today. I can agree there is no savior beside God for indeed Jesus is God.
In closing I would like to point out that neither the oneness nor the Trinitarian doctrine is perfect, nether can not adequately describe God. I love the Trinitarian perspective because it refuses to draw conclusions when the Bible refuses to draw conclusion. It doesn't attempt to explain how it is possible, mechanically or otherwise, that God can be three in One. It simply states that it is so. It takes all the scriptures concerning the Godhead and states what is being observed. You and I have only touched on a few of the scriptures that have lead men like me to subscribe to the Trinitarian lens. But we have to understand that this perspective is man's perspective so therefore it is inadequate. It is what we see with out limited understanding and blurred vision, when we look at the wonder and majesty that is God.
Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
We have to be careful when we describe God. He is unique in every way. He is the creator. Everything else is a creation. We must remember that there is none and nothing, that is like him. This is why he asks:
Isaiah 40:25
To whom then will you liken Me,(or compare me)
Or to whom shall I be equal?” says the Holy One.
Humanity will fall short anytime we try to describe his being in anyway. God is more then our ability to define.
Isaiah 55:8-9
“ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
“ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
I understand that God has revealed only glimpses of himself to us through revelation.
Deut 29:29
“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
I recognize that humanity has, at best, little windows into who and what God is. He has not revealed everything to us. Only those things we need to know. We would do well not to posture our selves as the know all, end all, truth machines.
As for your rebuttal, may I playfully suggest that you would make a great masseuse. For it seemed to me that you have rubbed, oiled, padded and messaged the Word of God to conformed to your own personal lens in a most masterful fashion. I can say this because it takes one to know one. If you and I are going to be able to reason productively, with each other or anyone else, We must learn to set aside our rubbing oil and let scripture speak for itself. We, that is me and you, must set aside our need to be right. To seek the Unity of Truth.
In Christ
ABR
Thank you, ABR! "I am able to agree with you that there is only one God. (Duet 6:4) That there is only one Lord (Eph 4:5). That the Son was indisputably begotten of a woman and that he is God's only begotten Son (Gal 4:4 and John 3:16.) He is without a doubt the image of the invisible God (Co1:15) And indeed God is Spirit (John 4:24) Indeed, there was only One God in the Old testament and certainly there was only one God in the new, and there is only one God today. I can agree there is no savior beside God for indeed Jesus is God." AMEN.
Hi JD
This is a very interesting discussion for me given that I myself have long left the trinity behind and am not sure what I am now! :) You will see on my website my reflections on the Godhead and I am wondering if your view and mine share some common ground. I also understand that the Holy Spirit is God. God is Spirit, God is Holy, hence Holy Spirit. But I also speak in my ramblings of the Spirit OF Christ in His role of Comforter making intercessions on our behalf before the Father's throne with groanings that cannot be uttered. Now the throne suggests a physical form for the Father and Son alike, indeed, we read this in Daniel 7:13 where the ancient of days did sit complete with white hair and beard, and also in Revelation 22 where not three, not one but two thrones are described. I have long wondered too about Proverbs 8 and was surprised when I read Justin Martyr accepted wisdom as referring to the Son of God. But I really like the consistency in which you portray from scripture the oneness of God in the OT which has caused me to feel like rambling on a bit more.
In His Grace
Brian
Praise God, Brian! Hallelujah! I'm going to copy the first part of Rev 22 (could copy the whole chapter here, but this is only for us to take note for understanding this in light of the One, True God):
"1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne [SINGULAR] of God and [KAI] of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne [SINGULAR] of God and [KAI] of the Lamb will be in the city, and His [SINGULAR] servants will serve Him [SINGULAR]. 4They will see His [SINGULAR] face, and His name [SINGULAR] will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God [SINGULAR] will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever."
The word 'kai' means 'even'. If we look at Titus 2:13 and 2 Pet 1:1 (for the sake of staying with the Greek language), the use of 'God and Savior Jesus Christ' uses the same word, 'kai'. The proper understanding of Rev 22 is 'the throne of God, even the Lamb'. The Lamb is God in the flesh, now in Spirit as He was in the beginning. The face of God is revealed in Jesus Christ ('We shall see His face' - Rev 22:4): 2 Cor 4:6 "For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
For futher evidence of this, don't look at the English translation, but the Greek word definitions at this link: http://biblos.com/revelation/22-1.htm
Notice the word 'of' is 'ek' and the word 'the' is 'tou'. This would then literally read "coming out of the throne of God, even [not 'then', as chosen from the many definition possibilities] the Lamb." Where they got 'of the Lamb' is beyond me; 'ek' is not shown there.
You may be interested in my lastest hubs, "Should You Believe in the Trinity? 1 of 2" and its sequel, 2 of 2. It's great we can continue in this walk of revelation together. May our Lord Jesus Christ be praised forever!
Oh, and Brian ~ here is a portion from my hub "Should You Believe in the Trinity: 2 of 2" that is a brief answer to your question about the intercession of Christ and the Holy Spirit:
Jesus and the Holy Spirit make intercession for us
We just discussed the Mediation of Christ. The thing we need to realize is God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ are one in the same. Look at Rom 8:9: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.”
How does the Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ intercede for us? In us and through us, for we are a kingdom of priests (Rom 8:26-27; Rev 5:10). Jesus, of course, is our High Priest (Heb 8:1). Again, all mediation will cease when the final enemy of man’s physical death is destroyed."
Hope to see you there! God bless you!!
Being thankful to submit “Who Is God” is so very necessary. Initially, many religions define who God is. At the outset God and gods according to etymology and linguistics, God is many different names and the explanation for such names.
Furthermore, God is according to science the projectivity of humanity’s evolutionary desire of what they wish to be. Moreover, to those of pure intellect, philosophy and science combined and due to curiosity, whereby it is said that humanity no longer have need of neither a God nor gods whereby humanity is the creator. Thus, this is a statement made due to information gather through various reading.
So now declared from this reasoning, is expressed who God is and not with an ontological supposition, which is based on experiences and other spiritual concern of faith. Not to debate religion, theology, science, pure reason of intellect, humanism, philosophy Gnosticism, the pure church nor any belief nor nonbeliever.
First, The English Origin Word of God - a noun - is not God. I believe The Absolute Supreme Creator of all is, no, other than "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" The Total Essence is Mind, Love, Truth (Word), Will, Wisdom, Peace, Right, Good, Just, Faith, Grace. Furthermore, all that is past, present, and future is an emanation from the mind of "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Love". Moreover, all existence and essence is of The Will and Wisdom of "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love". Undeniably! "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" because of the character and nature cannot do any evil of any sort at any time or space.
Second, The One and Only Absolute Supreme Creator is "The Pure Spirit Of Light" and are not gender nor female nor male either or neither both. What are more "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" is The One And Only Justifier of all is and none other that can justify and owe no explanation concerning The Mind Of Will Of Wisdom. In this, ontology or science nor metaphysic is in conflict according to The Will And The Wisdom of The Pure Spirit.
Third, additionally from a void, like as nothing in space Angels is spoke into creation by “The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love” and this revelation is expressed more clearly in The Torah. Above and beyond a certain chief angel of Freewill rebelled against "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" and was put out of that great space above and beyond.
Four, "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" cannot be infected by any force or source from any plane nor realm seen or unseen or visible nor invisible in any dominion. From the power of the love is humanity created with the emanation of freewill and chooses to go against The Will Of The Pure Spirit of Light who humanity was made in the image of "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love".
Five, The Image which is innate in humanity which is The Total Essence of "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" is Mind, Love, Truth (Word), Will, Wisdom, Peace, Right, Good, Just, Faith, Grace. “The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" grants humanity Freewill which is that like grace that humans are free mortal agents to live and do as they please because of the love that "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" have for humanity.
Six, the humans that was created by "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" failed. That's why "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Truth (Word) was an emanation by "The Power Of The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" into the earth plane by the spirit realm call “Jesus, The Christ”, humanity's Spiritual Father through a virgin human lady. For this reason "Jesus, The Christ" calls "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love", Father.
Seven, last but not least, The English Word God is "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" in the emanation of Jesus, The Christ in The Power Of The Pure Spirit Of Light (The Holy Spirit). "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" and Jesus, The Christ is the same and the only to be worshipped and praised by “The Power Of The Pure Holy Spirit”. In the earth plane and the spirit realm: One Faith, One Spirit and One Baptism for “The Human Family” as One Body for the reason that certain of humanity failed "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love".
Indeed, this is Who Is God.
Thank You,
Ike Lawrence Reed
Very poetic and appreciated, Ike Lawrence Reed! I assume your first two paragraphs are capturing the 'world view' of God, unlike the view of those who know God. You said so eloquently, "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" in the emanation of Jesus, The Christ in The Power Of The Pure Spirit Of Light (The Holy Spirit). "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" and Jesus, The Christ is the same and the only to be worshipped and praised by “The Power Of The Pure Holy Spirit”. Beautiful.
While you stated, "The One and Only Absolute Supreme Creator is "The Pure Spirit Of Light" and [is] not gender nor female nor male either or neither both", angels appeared in male human form on earth; God appeared in the male person of Jesus Christ. His image always has been and always will be the person of Jesus Christ.
You state, "The Pure Spirit Of Light Of Mind Of Love" because of the character and nature cannot do any evil of any sort at any time or space." This is true; nor can God have any character and nature that does do any evil of any sort at any time or space in His eternal presence. Thus, the reason for God our Savior and the reason God will judge those who practice such things without conscience and deny thier Creator, their LORD and Savior.
"One Faith, One Spirit and One Baptism" (Eph 4:5) is rightly stated, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"; amen. The LORD is that Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) ~ Hallelujah!
The only part of what you stated I would invite you to read more about is "a certain chief angel of Freewill rebelled against "The Pure Spirit Of Light of Love" and was put out of that great space above and beyond." I did a study on this doctrine of a "chief angel" rebelling in heaven, and found out it was the "Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan" (Rev 12:8; 20:2) who rebelled and was cast out with a third of the angels. Satan is said to be "a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44), so he was never a "cheif angel", let alone an angel of light. He disguises himself as such (2 Cor 11:4), but is not. I have a hub called "Is Lucifer the Devil?"
Thank you for sharing. Blessings to you.
Hello, Judah's Daughter!
Wonderful work!Thank you.
I know about unbeliever very well
because I was just non-believer 2 years ago.
I grew up withou God's word.
I'm from Japan where people believe many god(s)....
but I knew there is a supernatural God
because time of troubles I prayed God to help me..
what's missing...? it's Jeusu Christ
we learned Jesus as one of world religion teacher
which I was not interested at all.
I thought I don't need answer from religion
I never learned about God's love and His son.
I was pure ignorant .....
I never heard of Gospel of Jesus.
I made many mistakes and learned from it and move on
but kind of guilt that never get rid of,
kind of guilt that leaves a heavy burden of guilt,
kind of scars that no one can see,
but God!!!! His mercy , love and grace
He healed brokenhearted completely!
God forgives anyone who repents.
He forgave me which I don't deserve
He is faithful! I don't have word to express how
grateful I am.
I was falling in Love God and Lord saviour.
I know that many unbeliever out there
also there are some reason behind it
pray that all mankind have revlation of God.
know that God loves them!
Have a wonderful day!
Hi Lovewalk! Bless your heart!! I'm rejoicing with you that you found the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior!! Hallelujah to God!! Thank you so much for your wonderful testimony and yes, I pray with you and other believers that all mankind has a revelation of God and that they realize God loves them!! God bless you!!
Hi Judah's Daughter. An interesting article. I can see that you have the spirit of God, but unfortunately you are not quite there yet. You need to quite trying to understand the scriptures with your own understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. Remember, the scriptures are not meant for mans interpretation. They are spiritually discerned comparing spiritual things with spiritual, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.
Scripture tells us that we need no man to teach us, but that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. Pray and ask God to show you the truth and quite trying to understand it with your fleshly knowledge.
This is what the Spirit has shown me of God. God is Spirit and God is Holy, God is the Holy Spirit. Where you err is in your understanding of the relationship of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. You see, the Father and the Son are the Holy Spirit. There are two spirit beings that are God. In John we read,
Jn1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God. And verse :2 reads, the same was in the beginning with God. And continuing into verse :3, All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
Now here is spiritual interpretation of these verses.
The word is the first created of God. This God is the Eternal Father God. Notice what is written in Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;. This Amen, the Faithful and true witness speaking here is Jesus, the Word. This Word is the first created of God. Not only is he the first created, he is the only created God of the Eternal Father God. There are now two Gods. This God the word is created of the Holy Spirit that is God because at this time the Eternal is all that existed. So he is created of and by the Holy Spirit that is God. This is how the Word was God and Was With God. God the Father and God the Son, (the Word) are now both the Holy Spirit. This is how they can be three and yet One. They are are One and the same Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us that the Word created all things in heaven and in earth, but when it says this it is evident that the Father is excluded since he created the Word. Go back and read the scriptures again with this knowledge and they will be even more understandable. The Eternal God created the Word and by and through the Word the Eternal created all things. The Eternal gave the command and the Word did the creating. This Word is the God of the Old Testament. The God that brought Israel out of Egypt.
May God bless you in your search for the truth.
Hi Stan, I appreciate where we agree and feel the same toward your interpretation, in your statement "I can see that you have the spirit of God, but unfortunately you are not quite there yet." Here is my reasonable response, in love:
You stated, "God is Spirit and God is Holy, God is the Holy Spirit." Agreed!!
You stated, "You see, the Father and the Son are the Holy Spirit." And you stated, "They are are One and the same Holy Spirit." Agreed!!
Where you err ~ "There are two spirit beings that are God." With this, you quote John 1:1; however, you obviously have not done a word study on 'with' in this passage. I hope you also know that we, as 'sons of the Most High' are 'elohim'/'theos', right (Ps 82:6; John 10:34)? Angels are also part of 'elohim/theos'. There is, however, only one LORD Elohim. John 1:1 would literally read, "In the [ho] beginning was the [ho] Word and the [ho] Word was TO [pros] elohim (theon - object) and the [ho] Word was [ho-the] Elohim (Theos - subject)."
You then stated, "And continuing into verse :3, All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made." Amen. Him is singular - the LORD God made everything. Isaiah 44:24 clearly states, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."
You stated, "The word is the first created of God", but where you err is the fact that John 1:1 starts out with "In the beginning was the Word." Isaiah 44:24 above states that the LORD, your Redeemer, is "the one who formed you from the womb". The LORD, your Redeemer incarnate was 'created' in the womb of Mary. Show me any verse that tells us Jesus was begotten (born) or created before the womb of Mary. The correct interpretation of "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) should be cross-referenced with Col 1:15 "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of all creation." Now, because of faith in the LORD (Kurios - Greek for Yehovah), your Redeemer (aka Jesus, Yehowshua - YHWH Saves), we are 'born again' of the Spirit (aka born of God), as He was born (begotten) of both water (womb) and the Spirit (God). When we are 'born again', we are a 'new creation' (2 Cor 5:17).
So, you've not only stated,""There are two spirit beings that are God", you reiterated, "There are now two Gods." Hmmm....The LORD said in Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after Me."
Then, you've gone from two to three, when you stated, "This is how they can be THREE and yet One." Having two gods, let alone three, is polytheism ~ no offense intended. I mean, think about it. I was talking with a Jehovah's Witness this week. Their NWT consistently translates [ho] for 'the' in John 1:1, except when it comes to 'the Word was [ho] God'. Rather than use 'The God', they use 'a god'. Now, if the Word is 'a god', they truly are not monotheistic, for they 'follow the teachings of 'a god' (the Word) other than Yehovah, but do not worship this other 'god'. Now, if the Holy Spirit is our Teacher (John 14:26), do they have one God and two Teachers?...I could go on, but you are stating there are two gods, just as they do, when there is only One.
Put the equation together: You agree that God the Father is the Holy Spirit and that Jesus and God 'are' the Holy Spirit, so see how close you are? He is the Holy Spirit. The visible image of God is Jesus Christ. The LORD's physical appearance in the Old Testament was immortal flesh, while His flesh in the New Testament was mortal. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins! (Heb 9:22) In Isaiah 43:11 and Hosea 13:4 the LORD God said, "There is NO SAVIOR besides ME." Acts 20:28 states, "shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His OWN blood." Is the LORD God our Redeemer as He said? He is God our Savior, amen (Isa 45:21; Titus 2:13).
Jesus said He would raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19)! Yet God raised Him (Acts 10:40) and the Holy Spirit raised Him (Rom 8:11)! Is this two or three gods that raised His body? Absolutely not.
Considering all this, we are yet in agreement when you stated, "This Word is the God of the Old Testament. The God that brought Israel out of Egypt." AMEN!!
May God bless you also, as we, because we love Him and are His beloved, continue to walk in the Truth as revealed to us by His Spirit.
JD, thank you for your kind reply. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I too like you have done word studies on the Hebrew and Greek trying to understand the scriptures with my own understanding. I have spent the last 25 plus years trying to understand the scriptures. It was only after repeated prayers for understanding of the truth of God's word that God had mercy on me and showed me that I could not truly understand his word until I allowed his Spirit to guide me. I truly believe that it is God that revealed this truth to me in his word. I gave up trying to interpret the scriptures. I only compare the scriptures with the scriptures now to come to the truth in the word. If the scripture says one thing here and another thing there that seems to be contradictory to each other, then I search further for other scripture that clarifies the scriptures that I find to be contrary to each other. In this way I allow Gods word to interpret God's word. For God's word tells us that it is not meant for any private interpretation.
First off, let me clarify myself. I was not trying to say that there was three Gods. I was attempting to point out that this is how man came up with the idea of 3 persons in one. There is in fact only One Eternal God. There are though 2 Gods that are called the Holy Spirit but these two are not equal. There is the Eternal Spirit that is The Eternal God, and there is the Word God that is created of and by the Eternal Spirit. Before anything was created there was this self existing One. Since he was the only thing that existed at this time, anything that was created had to be created of him and by him. He took of himself and created another being to exist with him. These two being are now both Holy Spirit, but one is the creator and one is the created. The Eternal God created this being to be like minded as himself so that he would do the Fathers will in all things. The Eternal then gave the Word (this created being)the authority to create for him, the Eternal, all the rest of the creation. Even though the Word did the actual creating of all other things it is by the will of the Eternal that they are created.
Where you quoted Isa 43:10 before me no God was formed, nor shall there be after me, makes my point. This God speaking here is the Word that was formed by the Eternal. He is the only God that the Eternal has created and according to this scripture he is the only one that the Eternal will create. God the self existing one created the Word God and through him, and by him, (the Word), he created all things. It is this Word that created all things other than himself. This is why all these verses in the old testament can use the singular and the plural when referring to God. Whenever the scriptures refer to God they can mean either God the father, or God the son, or both, because they are both Holy Spirit and they are both our creators in the sense that even though the Word did the creating (other than himself)the Eternal is the true creator in the fact that he created the Word.
Where you quote Isa 44:24 and show that the Lord is the creator and he did it alone, this is true. Where you are missing the truth is in the fact that this God speaking here is the Word, not the Eternal self existing one. You are seeing this God as the Eternal when in fact it is the created God by which all other things were created. He did create it alone, but it was by the will of the Father that he created it.
Where you cross reference Rev 3:14 with Col 1:15, "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of all creation." again, I see this as making my point. Jesus the physical man, the Word, the spirit Son, are one and the same being and are the first born or created of God in every sense. The Word is the first created of the Father and Jesus is the first born of the flesh man that will be changed into spirit. The Word is the first born of God's spirit creation and Jesus is the first born of God's fleshly creation that will be changed into spirit.
I agree that there is but One Eternal God who is the true creator of all things. But this Spirit Word that God created is also God in the fact that God gave him this title as the creator of all other things. This God, the Word, is the God that created the heavens and the earth and all things in them including mankind. Whereas the Eternal is the true Father of all creation, the Word is the Father of the creation too since he is the creator of all other things. So the Word is our creator God even though the Eternal is the creator of everything since he created the Word. So then, there is One God who is over all, and there is two beings called God in scripture because the true creator of all gave the Word, the Son, the authority to be called God because God gave him the power and the authority to be a creator too. Everything is of the Self Existent One. This is how God is All in All. Everything is of the Eternal and for the Eternal. He is the One true God. Even so, the Word that became the physical Jesus can also be called our One true God in the fact that he is our creator by the will of the Eternal.
God wants us to worship Jesus as our Savior God until the last enemy is put under him. Then the Son will return this authority given him as our creator God back to the Father so that the Eternal will then be worshiped as the true creator of all.
I too could go on and on but I think both our points are lost on each other. I see your train of thought and how you come to your conclusions, but I will continue to believe what God has shown me over what mankind interprets the scriptures to mean. No disrespect intended. There is a day coming when we will know just as we are known. Praise God. Continue to walk in his truth. His Word is truth.
Hi Stan, I greatly appreciate the conversation, actually. May I sum up your interpretation with this: First off, you sound like you follow what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe (somewhat), and secondly there's just one trump card to answer you...
You made many statements that God created the Word, so the Word (Jesus) is the creation, rather than the One who created Him, right? Although, you state the Word then created all other things....He is still the creation, rather than the Supreme Creator (at least His Creator), right? You then said, "God wants us to worship Jesus as our Savior God..."
Now, look at this passage: Rom 1:25 "They exchanged God's truth for a lie and worshipped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."
Now, Ex 34:14 is clear: "-- for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD [YHWH - Yehovah], whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--"
Now, look at what the angel tells John, who fell down to worship him, in Rev 22:9 "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."
Heb 1:6 "And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him."
Jehovah's Witnesses state they do NOT worship Jesus, because they KNOW only Yehovah is to be worshiped (the Father). God's command is His command. Already, they are not following the holy Scriptures.
For another 'sharpening' of the Spirit's revelation, may I invite you to read my hub on the topic of the subjection of the 'Son' [devine huios] to the Father, when the last enemy of death, is destroyed?
Let me at least give you the Seed of the teaching...Jesus said in Rev 21:6-7 "Then He said to me, 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son [devine huios]." Is the Alpha and Omega the same as the First and the Last?
Isaiah 44:6 states, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his [notice no capital letter on 'his', meaning Israel's] Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is NO GOD BESIDES ME.'" Compare this to Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:"
Just as it was in the beginning, the Spirit of God was LORD over His creation (man) before the fall, so it will be when we are resurrected and ruling over the New Earth, with Jesus Christ as LORD.
The Bible does interpret itself truthfully, but only when you look at the original languages. Contradictions are present in the way it's translated. For this reason, we are admonished to study to show ourselves approved and unashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15). The multitude of translations published from their 'root', the Latin Textus Receptus, are majorly flawed, especially when you research what is translated in comparison to what the original languages state. Here's an example:
1 John 5:7: The original Greek merely states, "There are three that testify:" Below is a link to the original Greek, and another to show you many translations that show the exact translation. However, I've also provided a link so you can see for yourself that the KJV (for instance) adds the following text: "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
This is from biblos.com:
Here is the interlinear Greek, so you can see for yourself: http://biblos.com/1_john/5-7.htm
Here is the parallel comparison of many translations in English (NIV, NAS, etc.): http://bible.cc/1_john/5-7.htm
The alteration to this verse is what is famously known as "the Comma Johannium" (sound Latin to you?) I hope you will read some of my other hub links at the base of this one. I've studied and published for the edification of the saints, and I pray you are willing to partake.
The LORD is good and His MERCY endures forever!! God bless you as you continue in your studies and walk in His Spirit.
Hi again JD. I see that my points are lost on you as yours are on me so I'll end this here.
It is obvious that you are well versed in the Hebrew and the Greek where I am not. I rely on the Interlinear Bible and the Strong's Concordance. Because you know more about the use of these languages than I, I'll have to yield to you for the time being while I continue my studies. Thank you for your kindness and I will move on and read your other hubs. May God bless you as I know he will. Stan
Hi Stan, you know, this was the first hub that I wrote as I received this from the LORD. It was the hardest for me to break through the 'doctrines of men' that I had been raised with all my life until this point. From here, the LORD kept building and is yet building. I am still a student (disciple) and studying, just like you. I admire your studious spirit and love for the LORD God. May He encourage each of us in this walk, for it is a fascinating one!! Beware of the doctrines of men, and KNOW that the LORD's wisdom and knowledge supercedes our own understanding. We must lean on Him always, daily and never stop. We are being transformed into the image in which He created us...His image. Day by day, line upon line, precept upon precept and by His Spirit. May we overcome the 'world' unto His glory!! amen.
God is Love. Love is abstact. You know it when you feel it. Becareful though there r wolves in sheeps clothing therefore be equiped with the necessary wisdom for discernning what is real.
SanLaro, yes God is love, amen. What I've learned somewhat, is that if a person innocently doesn't know better, it's simply ignorance or even 'missing the mark', but if a person deeply knows better and chooses to turn his/her ears away from the truth because they'd rather be accepted or 'loved' by the 'world', that merits the likeness of a 'wolf'. Wolves have no Shepherd, but rather travel in packs, while sheep have a Shepherd and all follow Him. May we ask the LORD for wisdom, for without it, we would surely be ignorantly destroyed.
Lets agree the Bible in NO WAY contradicts itself...
1. Acts 2:22 "Jesus was a MAN accredited BY God"
2. The term "Son of Man" was 82 times in the New Testiment in reference to Jesus.
3. Numbers 23 "God is NOT a man..... NOR Son of Man...."
Jesus is indeed The Son of the 1 true living God and is our Messiah, our Salvation, our Christ!
Just as the elements of the nature of man are dust of the earth and Gods breath (Holy Spirit), Jesus' elements of His nature are God's very spoken word and the Breath of God (Holy Spirit)
Spoken word- that's what it means in Isaiah "My Word will not return unto me void"
Because Jesus came to do the work OF the Father to carry out the FATHER's Will and to glorify His FATHER... Not Himself.
But when GOD raised Jesus from the dead it was GOD that exalted Him and it was GOD that seated Him at His right hand and it was GOD that glorified Him and it was GOD that gave Him a name that is above all names that at the name of Jesus every knee shall now and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord TO TO TO TO TO the glory of GOD the Father!!!! Amen!
Noname,
Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-" Let's be sure to take the full verse with understanding. In John 14:9-10 Jesus clearly states, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."
Regarding the 82 times the "Son of Man" was used in the New Testament, this explains His humanity. The "miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst", is because 1 Tim 3:16 states, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Let's cross-reference this with Rev 2:8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the First and the Last, which was dead, and is alive". To understand Who the First and the Last is, go to Isa 44:6 ""This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and I am the Last; apart from Me there is no God."
As far as Num 23:19: "God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent:" we must understand this means God is not a carnal man, a sinful man. God was manifest in the flesh as 1 Tim 3:16 confirms, yet He did not have sin nor need of repentance from sin.
If Jesus was not begotten, He would not be the Son of Man, let alone the Son of God. Before He was begotten, He created all things as John 1:3 states. We only have One Creator, as Isa 44:24 confirms: "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone." Therefore, Jesus is God, our Creator, who even formed Himself in the womb of Mary.
You have declared Jesus Christ is our Savior. Now look at Isa 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me."
Speaking of God's Word, do you not speak your own word? If you were invisible, as God is invisible, how would you reveal yourself to those who could hear? Speak! Jesus is the revelation of the invisible God - His Word and His image.
You said, "Jesus came to do the work OF the Father to carry out the FATHER's Will and to glorify His FATHER... Not Himself". This is, once again, referencing His flesh as the Son of Man.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? This is covered in my hub. Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up." Did He lie? He is obviously God and God cannot lie. So you admit "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD", right? Let's confirm who Jesus is in Isa 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The Word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
Yes, "Let's agree the Bible in NO WAY contradicts itself..." Amen.
He also says He has a Father. This would make Him a liar if He had a Father. 1 Timothy 3:16 is actually a corrupted add-on that "God" can only be found in the KJV. How could God be justified? Conclusion: 1. Jesus ain't the Father. 2. He ain't God.
Oh, if theology were just that simple, DT. If you read the context of 1 Tim 3:16 (i.e. go to verse 15) it can only be referring to God, though 'He' is used in other versions of the Bible. If you're willing, may I invite you to read my hub "Answer to Lone Ranger: Is Jesus the Father?" http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h Hope to see you there.
Aye, theology ain't a cake man's game. Out of curiosity have you explored "wrong" views? It'd be good to analyze a lot of different arguments. I'd like to answer some of your verses if I may right now.
1 Timothy 3:15 seems to be talking about the church of God as 1 Timothy 3:16 addresses what the mystery of the church is (that Christ finally appeared as God promised). I don't see anything about Jesus being God. Of course, it may depend on what Bible you are reading. My top three are the NIV, NLT, and NWT (although I am not a Jehovah's Witness, my God-ordained Savior died on a cross and I believe Original Sin is heresy).
Isaiah 43:3 and other Savior arguments are a little a bit weak as well considering that Moses and Othniel were both God-ordained Saviors to Israel but none of them are God. The appropriate exegetical context of those verses in Isaiah is that Jehovah is seperating Himself from pagan deities...nothing more.
Funny that you mention Luke 1:35. I saw a Muslim mistake this verse to mean the Holy Spirit was Gabriel (maybe a leftover from early Arian theology). You mention Isaiah 9:6 as well. I think Isaiah had more on his mind in regards to what the Messiah would fulfill. Isaiah 8:14 may be identity confusion trick. Isaiah 28:16 references that Jehovah is laying the stone. Quite possible that the author referred back to the one named Immanuel (Jesus was the sign that God was with us).
There's also some confusion on the title "Lord" you mention. I like to translate it "Lord-Messiah" in reference to Jesus.
As for the "little g" gods, that title is reserved for those who exercise dominion or act on behalf of God (Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34-36). Thus, Jesus can be considered a god without falling into polytheism. Another interesting question to ask about John 2:19-22 is "was Jesus speaking metaphorically?" It is quite possible that since He obeyed His God and Father, this is what willed God to raise Him from the dead and in a metaphorical sense, Jesus DID raise Himself from the dead!
As for John 14:9 - Jesus is the true representation of His God and Father. However, I think if He intended to mean that He was God the Father, He would have said "I AM the Father!"
I'll post a comment on your other page too.
Hi DT, “Wrong” views…I suppose I could say your comment appears to be so to me, but that’s based on my interpretation/logic of what’s written here in comparison to your ‘answers’, though I didn’t ask…
Speaking of 1 Tim 3:15, you’ve admitted the subject here is the Church of God and thus, verse 16, in context tells us God purchased the church with His OWN blood.
Speaking of Arian theology, this denies the deity of Christ, as it appears you are doing? If Jesus isn’t God, who is He? Just another man as Moses and Othniel? I had to actually chuckle reading about the over-shadowing of the Holy Spirit upon Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, when you insinuated Muslims assume this to be Gabriel ~ I suppose that’s the same ‘Gabriel’ who appeared to Muhammad? Lol Then, they also think the Holy Spirit is Muhammad, too. Seems to me, God condemned angels for taking on human form and copulating with human women. Makes sense they think this is actually what happened in the birth of Christ situation - I guess that would make Jesus one of the Nephilim and His Spirit that baptizes us an ‘evil spirit’, since that’s what the spirits of the dead Nephilim are called in the book of Enoch. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin (Mark 12:10; Luke 3:29)
Isaiah was a prophet of God and he was not mistaken or false. Emmanuel does not mean a ‘sign’ that God is with us, but means “God with us”!!
Obviously, you think Jesus was a mere man, maybe just a prophet. If you can’t confess that Jesus Christ is YHVH/Kurios (the only LORD), you are lost. He wasn’t a mere lord, as an earthly king. The Bible tells us He is the King of kings and LORD of Lords. Funny, it states the same thing about God – oh wait….because He IS God.
Jesus can be considered ‘a god’ without falling into polytheism? According to you, He’s on the same level as Moses and Othniel. I would then assume you DON’T worship Him, do you? If you do, then you are a polytheist, considering you don’t believe He is God. God alone is to be worshipped.
Jesus raised Himself from the dead. God raised Him from the dead. The Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead….did Three raise Him from the dead? NO. These passages are used at differing places in scripture recounting the same event. God is the Hoy Spirit (invisible); the Son of Man was his human, visible image, as was the Angel of the LORD (YHVH) in the Old Testament, and He is yet the Spirit and image of God because He is God.
Jesus did say “I AM the Father” if you understand what is translated into English for us in John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Since no one can see God and live (Ex 3:20), we must understand what Jesus was saying here. Look at John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” Read this in the NIV and NLT it states the same thing. You say you’re NOT a Jehovah’s Witness, then WHY are you reading the heretical NWT? Would you re-write the Bible because you don’t think you are wrong? Guess what? Even the NWT proves Jesus is God. I’ll give you a start to some youtube videos to prove it:
I pray you will come to the Way, the Truth and the Light ~ God, your Savior, Jesus Christ.
Hi, Judah's Daughter.
I am a heresiologist and I have no meaning to hurt you in any way shape or form but have you heard of a heresy called Doceticism?
The heresy was declared the very doctrine that the Antichrist spirit would teach (2 John 1:7) by Polycarp, who was a very close student of John. It basically taught that the Christ spirit fused with the spirit of a man and that the divine spirit left a body hanging on the cross.
This heresy has been adopted by the cult of Christian Science (knowingly) and a vast majority of Christianity (unknowingly). Now I only intend to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15) but I want to highlight one of the things that you mentioned in your article:
"God is omnipresent. He is not limited to one place. He was both the Father and the Son (God coming to us in the flesh) and yet remained Spirit outside of the person of Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus was both Son of Man and Son of God, and as a Man prayed to the Spirit, the Father."
What does this sound like to you? The Father spirit fusing with a man spirit while staying in Heaven? If Jesus is the Father but the Son of Man is not the Father then Jesus's appearance is an illusion and you have stumbled into this heresy. My friend, I care for you and am praying that you will see where you are headed. God loves you much!
Arletta
Hi Arletta, I certainly hope you publish some of your research for us, as I would love to read your material! I very much appreciate the delivery of your exhortation ~ I looked up "Doceticism", which teaches Jesus was just an illusion, not a real, flesh and blood Man. I never ever have believed or teach such things.
My statement, "God is omnipresent. He is not limited to one place. He was both the Father and the Son (God coming to us in the FLESH) and yet remained Spirit outside of the person of Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus was both Son of Man and Son of God, and as a Man prayed to the Spirit, the Father" does not indicate that the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) is NOT the Father in any way.
The body of Christ Jesus was the flesh of God the Father. That's what I'm saying. Let's look at Acts 20:27 & 28 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit [God] has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of GOD which HE purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."
There is no 'fusing' here, but 'indwelling', when it comes to the Son of Man/Son of God, as the Holy Spirit of God (aka the Spirit of Christ) also indwells us by faith in Him. We are not God Himself because He indwells us, because we were created and have an earthly mother and father. While Jesus was born of a human woman, He did NOT have a human father (regarding conception). You and I must not only be born of water (the womb of Mom because of the will of Mom and Dad), but we must be re-born of the Spirit (the will of God) to be 'born again' and filled with the Holy Spirit of God/Christ. I don't see that as fusing, or an illusion, do you?
Now, if we take the invisible God and understand He made Himself known to us in a visible form (image), just as He appeared to Moses and Abraham (for instance) in the Old Testament, He yet allows those He chooses to 'see' and 'hear' Him today (i.e. Light with a voice ~ as in Paul's conversion experience ~ or as the 'Angel of the LORD'). Hear the testimonies of those who've experienced such awesome things. Our LORD is the same yesterday, today and forever, amen? I hope this brings some clarity to what I'm saying.
This is where you venture into it:
"yet remained Spirit outside of the person of Jesus Christ."
It is not the same exact variation, it simply uses different terminology. Regarding Acts 20:28 - many scholars have stated a better translation would be
a) blood of His own Son
or
b) church of the Lord
You err in using this to prove that Jesus is God the Almighty. Now while you do not believe that the Christ spirit fused with a man you DO believe that God's spirit fused with a man and turn Jesus into two. This is the basics of Doceticism.
Here is one file I was able to stumble across:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY_uz5-FmHI
You also state in one of your hubs:
"If you don’t believe Jesus was God in the flesh, you might have a hard time understanding that once out of body, Jesus could be everywhere at once."
The Docetics also denied that Jesus died by teaching one of Him was alive and one of Him was dead. Virtually, any doctrine which teaches that Jesus is two beings (exactly what you teach) is a copycat of Doceticism. God loves you much.
Arletta
Arletta, I wonder if you might be a Jehovah's Witness perhaps? Not sure that you would say or not...
I was thinking to myself, "How can one claim to be a 'heresiologist' unless they believe they know the absolute Truth?" I can see you do not believe Jesus is God, so to me, that is in error (indoctrination, ignorance, missing the mark). It's only "heresy", if you know better and choose to believe and teach something contrary to the Truth.
I have a question to trigger some thought to your spiritual mind ~ Do you believe your flesh is temporal and your spirit survives the death of the body? If you DO believe in what Jesus called "everlasting life" and Paul's teaching of being raised "incorruptible" (though we now live in corruptible bodies), then you should understand the eternal Spirit of God indwelling the tabernacle of the temporal flesh of the Son of Man, in order to shed blood for the forgiveness of sins. No one can forgive sin but God. For this reason, Jesus was crucified ~ the Son of Man shed God's holy blood. No one else could do this for us, but God our Savior, Yehowshua.
The beautiful thing is, Jesus' body (not born of a human father) did NOT see corruption. Had He stayed in that grave long enough, He would have, just like you and I. He was in a real, human body of flesh and BLOOD.
You've at least introduced me to "Doceticism". I have researched it enough to know that it denies Jesus Christ ever existed in the flesh. That is not what I believe or teach. I believe God came in the flesh. I have many, many hubs on this subject, based on the Bible ~ and therefore, if you are such a heresiologist, test away.
My only exhortation, in love, to you is to likewise test what you hold to be the truth to the Truth; for there is Only One Truth and Jesus said, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE." Only One Way; Only One Truth; and Only One [Source of] Life. Amen.
P.S. Arletta, I have listed to the man on your youtube link. He knows a lot of truth, for I do not believe in God being three, separate 'persons', but One Spirit/One Person. However, I have listened to many of his videos and he, also can be refuted. He teaches some false doctrines, for sure. But, I give him kuddos for not going along with the corruption of the Catholic-coined term 'Trinity' (three in unity).
Judah's Daughter,
You said to Arletta:
"How can one claim to be a 'heresiologist' unless they believe they know the absolute Truth?"
Is that not kind of what you are doing in this hub-page? "Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS". My question is this:
How do you know so much about God and we do not?
As for Yeshua the Messiah as Savior...Acts 7:35 says Moses was made a Savior and Acts 5:31 shows Jesus was made our Savior. Now I have one more response on your argument...
You talked about how "only God can forgive sins and Jesus forgave sins thus Jesus is God". I believe everything can be answered scripturally and with prayer. The Bible never says He cannot delegate authority to someone. In fact:
Matthew 9:8
"Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for sending a man with such great authority." - New Living Translation
God sent Jesus with the authority to forgive sins. Tell you what though...
You pray for me and I will pray for you. We will both strengthen each other and lead each other in our walk with Jesus Christ. Let's not claim to know more about God then the other but belittle ourselves and open ourselves to discussion. As for Jesus being "the Way the Truth and the Life", I believe He was claiming sole role as mediator between us and God since He also said "no one goes to the Father except through me" right afterward.
But like I said, you pray for me and I will pray for you. I am your brother, you are my sister.
Jehovah bless in the name of Jesus.
Hi DT,
I have been listening to the LORD, as He gave me this direction in answering you:
Regarding Moses: The Bible says in Gal 3:19 “Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator [Moses], until the seed [Jesus] would come to whom the promise had been made.” You might want to claim that Moses was a ‘god’ unto Pharaoh (Ex 7:1), therefore, Jesus is ‘a god’ unto us; however, if you read that passage in your NLT it states, “Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘Pay close attention to this. I will make you seem like God to Pharaoh, and your brother, Aaron, will be your prophet.’”
Understand that it was the ‘Husband’ of ‘Israel’ who gave the Covenant (Will and Testament) to Moses for them, and in order for that Covenant (Testament) to change, the ‘Husband’ had to DIE. Let’s look at Heb 9:16-17 “In the case of a will [testament], it is necessary to prove the death of THE ONE WHO MADE IT, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.” Truly, the Bible states that Jesus Christ is the ‘Bridegroom’ and in Jewish Law, the betrothal is the same as marriage. He is the “Husband” who gave the Testament and died to change it.
Rom 5:14 tells us, “Nevertheless DEATH reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a TYPE of Him [Christ] who was to come.” 1 Cor 15:45 (NLT) “The Scriptures tell us, ‘The first man, Adam, became a living person.’ But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is [there is no article] life-giving Spirit.’”
Revelation 1:8 tells us that the Almighty God died for us: "’I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is and who was and who IS TO COME, the Almighty.’" Go down to vs. 17-18 “When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ‘Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.’” Compare this to Is 44:6 “This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; apart from Me there is no God.’”
You asked me, “How do you know so much about God and we do not?” Judas (not Iscariot) asked Jesus about this in John 14:22 “Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, ‘Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?’" If we go back up in this chapter to vs. 7-9, WHAT was the ‘disclosure’? Jesus said, “If you really knew Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have SEEN Him.”
Philip said, ‘Lord, SHOW us the Father and that will be enough for us.’
Jesus answered: ‘Don’t you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has SEEN Me has SEEN the Father. How can you say, ‘SHOW us the Father’?”
I will pray for you and you pray for me. The LORD desires we KNOW Him and for you and me, and all who love Him, He will give us the desires of our hearts (Ps 37:4). The LORD is my Shepherd (Ps 23:1) and Jesus revealed in John 10:11 “I am the good Shepherd; the good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.”
Amen and amen! Jehovah does desire that we know Him!
To respond to some of your verses (of course, I have been trained differently than you :-)):
You spoke about Galatians 3:19 and Hebrews 9:16-17 - there is a footnote in my NLT Study Bible which states that it can also be translated:
"Now when someone makes a covenant, it is necessary to ratify it with the death of a sacrifice."
Which takes us back to the OT when Abraham made a covenant with YHVH. He was commanded to sacrifice Isaac, not himself. Thus, if G/J/HS are the same entity, where then is the substitutionary death?
You bring up that Jesus and God are both called "husband". My response:
Hebrews 1 describes Jesus as the heir of all things. Naturally, this would include the husbandhood. Everything except being the Supreme and Absolute Deity. Which brings me to another question which I do not get about Jesus being God -
Why would God inherit everything if He already had everything?
I use 1 Cor. 15:45 to prove Jesus was raised as a spirit-being. Angels are also spirit-beings.
Onto "First and Last" - I count five "Firsts and Lasts" in the Bible. Adam - first and last to be directly created from dust. Eve - first and last to be directly created from the rib of man. Saul - first and last of his family to have monarchy over Israel. God - first and last of all who have existed. Jesus - first and last to be created directly by God and raised from the dead (Colossians 1:15, 19).
Onto the "good shepherd". I again, count two shepherds.
Ezekiel 34:20-24 (NIV 1984)
"‘Therefore this is what Sovereign Yahweh says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I Yahweh will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I Yahweh have spoken."
Jehovah is placing Jesus as a shepherd over us. Thus, God is one shepherd and Jesus is another making two shepherds.
I just cannot see the Father dying on that cross but I can see Jesus in John 14:9 showing that He is the true representation of His God and Father, displaying Him perfectly to us.
Those are my thoughts on this subject. Continue to pray for me and I will continue to pray for you.
Hi DT,
You asked, “Which takes us back to the OT when Abraham made a covenant with YHVH. He was commanded to sacrifice Isaac, not himself. Thus, if G/J/HS are the same entity, where then is the substitutionary death?” The RAM was the death. Jesus Christ is our Righteousness, and in the OT the burnt offering was a RAM. You might enjoy my hub “A RAM for Abraham” http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h and another called “With His OWN Blood” http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h which points out the FACT that God abhors child sacrifice. Indeed, God purchased the Church with His OWN Blood (Acts 20:28).
You asked, “Why would God inherit everything if He already had everything?” We MUST go back to the vision of Daniel in Chapter 7. In verses 13-14 we read, “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
Many have taught this to be a vision of Jesus being given these things, right?
Now, let’s go to the interpretation the angel gives to Daniel in vs. 27 “Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’”
You said, “I use 1 Cor. 15:45 to prove Jesus was raised as a spirit-being. Angels are also spirit-beings.” I take it you are insinuating that Jesus might be an angel? Not only is Jesus not an angel, we are not angels. Heb 1:13 (NLT) tells us, “And God never said to any of the angels, ‘Sit in the place of honor at My right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet." Jesus is not an angel; and 1 Cor 6:3 states we, the saints, will judge the angels. Jesus said we will be ‘as the angels in heaven’ in that we will not marry (Mat 22:30).
Let’s talk about Heb 1:13’s terminology of ‘right hand’ and ‘footstool under your feet’ for a moment. With the understanding of Dan 7, we can see that the saints are the ‘Son of Man’ standing before the Ancient of Days, and if we look at Ps 16:8, we can see the LORD is at OUR right hand: “I have set the LORD always before me. Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.” We can therefore, concede that ‘the right hand of God’ can have two meanings: There are times ‘Elohim’ refers to the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) and other times it refers to ‘the sons of the Most High’ (Ps 82:6). There are times when ‘Son of Man’ refers to Jesus Christ and others it refers to ‘the people of the Most High’. Jesus went before us. He became us. He stood in our stead. He took the punishment we deserve. The inheritance He originally gave us was given by us over to the ‘god of this world’ (2 Cor 4:4; Mat 4:8-9) at the fall. He is going to give that inheritance BACK to us!
Now, let’s talk about ‘footstool under your feet’. Read Ps 8:6-7 (NIV) “You made him ruler over the works of Your hands; You put everything under his feet: all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.” (cross ref Gen 1:28).
You talk about multiple firsts and lasts and multiple shepherds. You also may believe there is more than One God (if the LORD is God and Jesus is ‘a god’). Is believing and worshiping two gods any better than three? I do not believe there is more than One God, THE Sovereign LORD. Jesus is called ‘our only Sovereign’ in Jude 1:4. You are certainly invited to read my hub about this, too: http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h
You said, “Jesus - first and last to be created directly by God and raised from the dead (Colossians 1:15, 19).” Jesus was not the first to be created by God; Adam was. Jesus was the first-born of the ‘new creation’, in that He was both born of water (Mary’s womb) and the Holy Spirit (the Father) – Ref John 3:5. While Jesus is the first to be raised from the dead, He is not the last to be raised. The resurrections are yet coming (Rev 20:5). David was an earthly shepherd, a type of ‘Christ’, also. He was a king of Israel, but Jesus is THE KING of Israel. David has not ascended (bodily) into the heavens (Acts 10:34). Jesus has. Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19 and 21). Two or Three did not raise Him, but the One LORD did: (Acts 10:40, etc.; Rom 8:11). Do not allow such thoughts as multiple firsts and lasts and shepherds to cloud your spiritual mind.
You said, “Therefore this is what Sovereign Yahweh says to them: See, I Myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep… I will judge between one sheep and another, etc.” Who is the Judge in Ezekiel 34:20-24? David? No; it is the LORD. Jesus declares Himself to be the Judge in Mat 7:21-23 (cross-ref Rev 20:11-17). It’s interesting that the ‘sheep’ (aka the ‘sons/people of the Most High) are placed on HIS RIGHT, don’t you think?
Wow! You raise a LOT of great points. I am fascinated by your spiritual knowledge. First off, I do believe Jesus is a god in the same way kings and rulers are gods (Psalm 82:6). I must admit, your Oneness theology is actually far more sound than the UPC's teachings that "Son" just means flesh in these cases.
Now, you asked whether I believed Jesus was an angel or not. Yes and no. Not an angelic being, but indeed the Archangel Michael. Now onto Jude 1:4. You mention that Jesus is our "only Sovereign". Let's take a look at the context.
Jude 1:4
"I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God's marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
Jesus is being separated from those trying to worm their ways into the church and Jude is reminding the readers that Jesus is the only one who has been made Sovereign by God (Acts 2:36). Onto the judge. I advise you to look up Acts 17:30-31 where Jesus is appointed judge.
Onto Acts 20:28 - there is a footnote in my Bible that reads some Greek manuscripts read "blood of His own Son".
Thanks for your response! Out of curiosity, how do I make a hub-page account myself?
Well, thank you, DT. It is apparent that you study Jehovah's Witness material or are one, which I am not ~ as you know. I don't know the fullness of the teaching of the UPC; I do know no one I've ever heard preach addresses Daniel 7 and the interpretation, as I'm thankful you were able to receive.
The Archangel, Michael has a name that means 'Who is like God?'; this doesn't mean he is like God, but 'Who, among all created beings, is like God?' Michael is never called 'LORD'. In fact, speaking of the book of Jude (the brother of Jesus), it is recorded in vs. 9 that Michael would not rebuke the Devil ~ only the LORD could rebuke him. Don't you think Jude would call Jesus by His name here, rather than 'Michael'? Jesus is the CREATOR, not the created (John 1:3). And God created all things BY HIMSELF (Is 44:24).
Yehowshua (YHVH Saves) is the image of the invisible God, Who is Spirit. Whenever He appeared to man in the Old Testament, He could be heard or even seen. For this reason, the 'Word' or 'Messenger' of God is called the 'Angel of the LORD', whereas the other heavenly angels have a heirarchy. The highest order are the Seraphim, not even the Archangel. You can look up information on this anywhere.
God manifested Himself to mankind in various forms (the Greek word is 'morphe') throughout the Old and New Testaments: immortal flesh to Abraham and Jacob (Gen 18:2; 19:1; Gen 32:24, 28, 30); the Angel of the LORD (Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14), the Rock at Horeb (Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4), clouds and fire (Num 14:14), the flesh of the Son of Man/Son of God (Is 7:14; Mat 1:23) and the dove at the baptism of Jesus (John 1:23; Mat 3:16). Even Jesus, after His resurrection morphed into another 'form' when He appeared to the two men walking on the road (Mark 16:12 - look up the word 'form', which is 'morphe') and later appeared as a blinding, bright Light that spoke to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-4). Surely, Jesus was the 'Angel of Yehovah' that gave the Law to Moses. He is the Word of Yehovah, the Spirit of Yehovah, the flesh of the Yehovah. He is "I AM" (John 8:58).
As a JW, you know that whenever you see the word 'Lord' or 'Kyrios' in the Greek New Testament, it is to be translated 'Yehovah' (Hebrew). 1 Cor 12:3 states, "no one can say Jesus is Lord [Kyrios/Yehovah], except by the Holy Spirit." Likewise, it is through Jesus (image) ALL things were created; it is through Jesus (image) ALL mankind, devils and demons will be judged.
Only God is THE Sovereign LORD. Only God is our Savior. Only God can forgive sins. Only God will Judge His creation. This God is YHVH (His name as Savior is Yehowshua/Yeshua/Jesus).
Those spoken of in Jude 1:4 deny this fact, even as you believe (yet, you can repent as the LORD leads you). Jesus is called our ONLY Sovereign AND LORD [Kyrios/Yehovah], which it is apparent you deny. Whether or not you live an immoral life is really not the issue; you probably outshine most, no doubt. How is it so many can be deceived? "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."
Salvation by works [self-righteousness] vs. faith [the righteousness of God] is another subject and I have written on this as well (here's just one of many): http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h I would say to understand Eph 2:8-10:
"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith—and this not from yourselves [based on your works], it is the gift of God — not by works [yourself], so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." In other words, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) just as "works without faith is dead".
Regarding Acts 20:28, look up the Greek to know what should be written: http://biblos.com/acts/20-28.htm You will NOT see the word 'son' (huios) in this passage at all.
The Catholics changed the Bible to fit the pagan doctrines of the Roman empire of the day. They inserted the word 'Lucifer' (Latin) in Isaiah 14; they added baptism and the three-fold name of God to Mat 28:19 (admitted it, too) and added the 'Trinity' theology to 1 John 5:7 (called the 'Joahannine Comma'). They took out the second Holy Commandment of God to teach their little 'Catechismites' to practice idol worship and repetative prayers. If you're looking for a Bible to tell you what you want to believe, you will no doubt find one.
The Catholic Textus Receptus is the main manuscript from where the KJV (the oldest Bible version) was translated (late 1500s). Joseph Smith has a completely different Bible (1800s); Jehovah's Witnesses have their own, too (1800s). I'd say I am thankful for the Tanakh, which out-dates them all. We can only test latter-day translations by the God (YHVH) of the Old Testament; not the other way around.
We were sternly warned by the Apostle Paul in Gal 1:8 (NLT) "Let God's curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you." Well, the NWT wasn't around then. It's preaching a different Jesus. Even those who use the KJV preach a different Jesus because of the 'Trinity' additions by the RCC. Mormons certainly teach a different Jesus. Look, the LORD delivered me out of ALL this 'stuff' ~ doctrines of men. He will do the same for you, if you love Him.
1 John 2:27 NLT "But you have received the Holy Spirit, and He lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what He teaches is true--it is not a lie. So just as He has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ." He wills for those who seek Him to know Him. So pray earnestly so, as I do, too.
To sign up for HubPages, just go to hubpages.com and click 'sign up'. It will take you step by step through the process.
I will make an account and provide the answer for the hope that is within me. I am not a JW.
Now, you said:
"Surely, Jesus was the 'Angel of Yehovah'"
Amen, I agree.
Now compare Jude 1:9 with Zechariah 2:3:
"The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?""
Going further into Zechariah 12:8
"On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them."
The Angel of Jehovah is "like God". Michael the Archangel quotes it. It carries the divine name though, not because it is Yahweh, but because it carries it as an act of agency. I hope I can answer more of your questions and that we can build each other up in our growth with Christ Jesus.
Now you mention that everyone but you has a different Christ. Isn't that a little bit unfair? Are you certain God has revealed this to you? Let's not break each other down but build each other up. You will pray for me and I will pray for you.
As for Acts 20:28, here are some Trinitarian confessions on the Greek translation:
Albert Barnes:
"It is retained, however, by Beza, Mill, and Whitby as the genuine reading. The most ancient mss., and the best, read "the church of the Lord," and this probably was the genuine text. It has been adopted by Griesbach and Wetstein; and many important reasons may be given why it should be retained. See those reasons stated at length in Kuinoel "in loco"; see also Griesbach and Wetstein. It may be remarked, that a change from Lord to God might easily be made in the transcribing, for in ancient mss. the words are not written at length, but are abbreviated. Thus, the name Christ ???????? Christos is written ChoS; the name God ????? theos is written ThoS; the name Lord ??????? kurios is written KOS; and a mistake, therefore, of a single letter would lead to the variations observable in the manuscripts. Compare in this place the note of Mill in his Greek Testament. The authority for the name "God" is so doubtful that it should not be used as a proof text on the divinity of Christ, and is not necessary, as there are so many undisputed passages on that subject."
Adam Clarke:
"Mr. Wakefield, who was a professed and conscientious Unitarian, decides for ??? ????, of God, as the true reading; but, instead of translating ??? ????? ????????, with his own blood, he translates, by his own Son, and brings some passages from the Greek and Roman writers to show that ????? and sanguis are used to signify son, or near relative; and, were this the only place where purchasing with his own blood occurred, we might receive this saying; but, as the redemption of man is, throughout the New Testament, attributed to the sacrificial death of Christ, it is not likely that this very unusual meaning should apply here. At all events, we have here a proof that the Church was purchased by the blood of Christ; and, as to his Godhead, it is sufficiently established in many other places. When we grant that the greater evidence appears to be in favor of ??? ??????, feed the Church of the Lord, which he has purchased with his own blood, we must maintain that, had not this Lord been God, his blood could have been no purchase for the souls of a lost world."
Jamieson-Faucet-Brown
"to feed the church of God-or, "the Church of the Lord." Which of these two readings of the text is the true one, is a question which has divided the best critics. The evidence of manuscripts preponderates in favor of "THE Lord"; some of the most ancient Versions, though not all, so read; and Athanasius, the great champion of the supreme Divinity of Christ early in the fourth century, says the expression "Church of God" is unknown to the Scriptures. Which reading, then, does the internal evidence favor? As "Church of God" occurs nine times elsewhere in Paul's writings, and "Church of the Lord" nowhere, the probability, it is said, is that he used his wonted phraseology here also. But if he did, it is extremely difficult to see how so many early transcribers should have altered it into the quite unusual phrase, "Church of the Lord"; whereas, if the apostle did use this latter expression, and the historian wrote it so accordingly, it it easy to see how transcribers might, from being so accustomed to the usual phrase, write it "Church of God." On the whole, therefore, we accept the second reading as most probably the true one. But see what follows."
Hello DT, you have kept me busy today. So you’re not a JW. I recently had a conversation with someone who was ‘studying to BECOME one’. What type of initiation is required? (That’s really not a question). I have not asked ‘questions’ of you. I am simply responding to your statements.
Regarding Zehariah 1:8, you must read it properly: "On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David [who goes before the feeblest among them] will be like God = [like God, Who is the Angel of the LORD going before the house of David]."
I did not say everyone has a different Jesus than me. If they are not following the Bible (the Tanakh) and understanding the New Testament based on the Tanakh, believing Jesus is NOT the Almighty God, they believe in a different Jesus.
Based on all your posted commentators, are you eluding to the LORD’s first commandment, “I AM the LORD, your God” meaning the LORD and God are not the same? Frankly, it doesn’t matter to me whether the text reads “the Church of the LORD or the Church of God”. The Greek link I gave you shows the word ‘Theou’ is used, not Kyrios. God is the word. God is the LORD. Do you not call Yehovah ‘God’? Are you attempting to say, YHVH is the LORD and Jesus is God or vise versa? Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. He is the Bridegroom, the Husband to ‘Israel’. He is God, our Savior. He is Almighty God, the LORD. Jesus Himself, the Tanakh and the New Testament inspired scriptures (not the insertions by the RCC) declare it to be so.
DT, I have not posted the entirety of your last comment as you have obviously made the decision and hold to your beliefs as follows:
"I believe Jesus is the Lord-Messiah and God is YHVW."
"I think that it is those who confess Jesus as God the Almighty who are on the wrong path."
There is nothing more I can do for you here. You provided links of teachings that support your doctrine; I have written several hubs that support what the Bible teaches. You are welcome to continue reading, or not. You have that choice.
Thank you for the opportunity to minister to you and I do pray the Seed of Truth has somehow planted in your heart and will grow to bring you into the full knowledge of Christ.
Thank you for the debate. If you are interested in analyzing the different arguments used to support the Trinity doctrine vs Oneness doctrine, I would recommend this following link:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htm
While being pro-Trinitarian, they certainly do give a synopsis of why Oneness doctrine is wrong using numerous Oneness quotes.
I would also recommend the book "Divine Truth or Human Tradition". It pits Trinitarians, Arians, and Socinians in one big book, reaching the conclusion that the Trinity "Jesus is God" doctrine is actually not clearly presented in the Bible. I do hope you can analyze the varying opinions without getting stuck on one. You may hold to Oneness, you may not. Just don't make up your mind on "absolute truth" just yet. Everyone has their own variation of the Trinity. You have yours and I have mine.
God bless you in the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
DT, I do not hold to the 'Trinity' doctrine, which states the Son is not the Father, and neither are the Holy Spirit. You state the same thing. The only difference is, Trinitarians believe all three are God; you do not. They are closer to the Truth, but have missed it, while you deny the Truth.
If Jesus is not God and He is called our Savior and LORD (Luke 2:11), God lied in saying He is the only Savior (Is 43:11), and the Bible lies by calling Jesus our Savior and LORD, while declaring there is only One LORD (Eph 4:5).
It's interesting you hear the Oneness vs. Trinity debates and agree moreso with the Trinitarians? When I listen, I understand the Oneness, which if the Trinitarians understood, there would be no debate (I have not listened to your link, but have spent hours listening to debates). As I said, both you and they do not believe Jesus is the Only True God, the Almighty ~ His name as LORD is YHWH ~ "I AM". His name as Savior is "YeHoWsHua".
And, by the way, I didn't even know there was such a thing as 'Oneness' believers out there. Even they may explain some things in a way I would explain differently (all debates are subject to human error); nevertheless, I do agree with modalism/monarchianism when it comes to the 'Person' of God.
Rom 3:4 "Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: 'So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.'"
1 John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is THE true God, and eternal life."
I've been writing and ministering to people of varying doctrines long enough to know I cannot be swayed into dethroning the LORD, Jesus Christ. Won't happen.
I am not trying to "dethrone" our Lord Jesus Christ. I am trying to promote the scriptural truth that Jesus is subject to God (Revelation 3:12, Revelation 2:26-28, John 20:17, John 14:28, Acts 2:36).
Now onto the title Savior. We need to realize that the context of those Isaiah passages was God trying to seperate Himself from pagan deities. If we look at Acts 7:35 her:
""So God sent back the same man his people had previously rejected when they demanded, 'Who made you a ruler and judge over us?' Through the angel who appeared to him in the burning bush, God sent Moses to be their ruler and savior."
So assuming "only God is Savior and Jesus is Savior and therefore God" is actually erroneous since it would make Moses God.
Onto Luke 2:11. The Greek favors the disposition Christ YHVH. I believe the NWT makes note of that even though keeping the translation Christ the Lord.
According to one blogspot which was refuting UPC's 60 questions on the Godhead,
"31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.
Trinitarians agree. For the record, Arians do as well."
If it means we believe "Christ Yahweh", this blog is correct. Christ was given the name as a title. Not because He is Yahweh but because Yahweh named His annointed one after Himself.
Onto 1 John 5:20 - the verse is affirming that the "one who is true" is the true God. Although this verse is exceptionally difficult to discern and even Trinitarian scholar Albert Barnes thought it difficult and needed to demonstrate why he thought it applied to Jesus. Thus, 1 John 5:20 MUST be used with caution and MUST be backed up with other scriptures to prove a point.
God bless you in the name of Jesus.
DT, you said, “I am not trying to "dethrone" our Lord Jesus Christ. I am trying to promote the scriptural truth that Jesus is subject to God (Revelation 3:12, Revelation 2:26-28, John 20:17, John 14:28, Acts 2:36).”
Remember we discussed Daniel 7 and the ‘handing over of the kingdom’ to 'the Son of Man'? It is the saints (Son) that are subject to God and it is the LORD Jesus who hands over the kingdom to God (Elohim), the saints. I thought you received this truth, but obviously, you still have some indoctrination to overcome. I have a hub called “1 Corinthians 15:28 – Jesus subject to the Father?” http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h I probably should write a hub called “The Flip Side”, which is only touched on in the link I’ve provided you.
We’ve already discussed Moses being a mediator/savior. It was the LORD that worked through Him BEFORE the Seed [Jesus Christ] would come, who forever accomplished all the ordinances of the First Covenant (Heb 7:28) as the 'last Adam' (1 Cor 15:45) to establish the New. Again the Author of the Covenant must die in order to change it, not the offspring of the Author (Heb 9:16-17).
You said, “Onto Luke 2:11. The Greek favors the disposition Christ YHVH. I believe the NWT makes note of that even though keeping the translation Christ the Lord.” You also said, “Onto 1 John 5:20 - the verse is affirming that the "one who is true" is the true God. Although this verse is exceptionally difficult to discern and even Trinitarian scholar Albert Barnes thought it difficult and needed to demonstrate why he thought it applied to Jesus. Thus, 1 John 5:20 MUST be used with caution and MUST be backed up with other scriptures to prove a point.”
See, you’re spending all your time trying to argue with the Word, rather than believing what it says. The Bible will not contradict itself. When there IS a contradiction (i.e. Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7), we can research and find out easily those passages were altered by man. God is faithful to answer us. He said tares would be sown among the good seed (the Word), so He will show us the tares, that we might pull them out and burn them in the fire (Mat 13:25; Luke 8:11; Mat 13:30). The Enemy has not only sown tares in the unadulterated Word of God, but he has ‘enlightened’ latter-day servants of his to actually re-write the Holy Word of God under names of men not even mentioned in the Bible (and the Bible IS a book of prophecy): i.e. Joseph Smith (The Book of Mormon, inspired by the fallen angel, Moroni), the Qur’an, inspired by a fallen angel calling himself ‘Gabriel’ and the New World Translation, inspired by the Watchtower. Interestingly, the fallen angels are called ‘The Watchers’. Get out, while you can, for Judgment is coming.
You said:
"When there IS a contradiction (i.e. Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7), we can research and find out easily those passages were altered by man."
1. I agree. Also, 1 Timothy 3:16 (should read "He who" not God), Philippians 2:5-11 (should not read "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" but instead "did not think equality with God"), Revelation 1:11 (alpha and omega clause should be eliminated), etc.
2. Now I request that you do research for Trinitarians and Arians alike (who supposedly have a different Christ and are going to Hell because we don't believe Jesus is God the Father) on Matthew 3:16-17, Revelation 4-5, 1 Corinthians 11:3, and all the other passages where the Father and Son (Jesus) "appear" to be two distinct beings so that we will not be deceived by God into taking a different Christ. We would NOT want any of that to happen.
P.S.
Sorry if I came out rude.
Christian love.
Thank you for pointing out Rev 1:11. I checked the Conservative Interlinear and ‘Alpha and Omega’ is no there: http://studybible.info/ACVI/Revelation%201:11, while in the Interlinear Greek NT, it is: http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%201:11 Nonetheless, First and Last is definitely seen in Rev 2:8 in both the conservative and IGNT. This, in comparison with Isaiah 44:6 confirms that Jesus IS the Almighty God.
To understand 1 Tim 3:16, we must read vs. 15, which confirms it is God that is the subject of vs. 16. This truth also aligns with Rev. 2:8.
It’s irrelevant how Phil 2:6 is worded there; it means the same thing.
I’ve explained Mat 3:16-17. If you understand God is both invisible and visible in this passage, and sent the dove as a sign to John the Baptist (John 1:33), we don't have a 'Trinity' of persons.
Not sure what you’re referring to in Rev 4-5 (did you mean 4:5)? Regarding 1 Cor 11:3, if you read the Greek, it states, “The head of every man is the anointed; the head of every wife [1185] is the husband [435]; and the head of the anointed is God.” Here’s the Greek Interlinear for reference: http://studybible.info/ACVI/1%20Corinthians%2011:3 Consider the Greek word for ‘man’ in Romans 5:12 is #444. The Husband is Christ and He is the head of the Church, as the earthly husband is the head of his wife, when it comes to being the ‘savior of the body’. Understand that even in 1 Cor 11:7 (just four verses later), it is made clear that the husband is not to cover his head, as he is the image and glory of God. Likewise, Jesus Christ, as the Husband, who is God, does not ‘cover’ His head.
In answering to “other passages where the Father and Son (Jesus) "appear" to be two distinct beings”, again God is both invisible and visible all throughout the Bible. If you categorize invisible and visible as two, that is the explanation.
You have not been rude. I hope I have not been either. I appreciate your respectful communication, DT.
I meant Revelation 4-5. Where God the Father is sitting on the throne and is declared "thrice Holy" and "creator of the universe" and is worshipped in such a way to declare His Supremacy over everything. Then Jesus, the Lamb, walks up and receives the scroll and He is given due homage, not because He is God, but because He was made worthy by God the Father to receive such homage. We need to understand Philippians 2:5-11 to understand why the Lamb was worshipped. He was worshipped because He was given a name above the others. Worship is a relative term and can mean homage, honour, or obeisance given to one in higher status.
Okay, so let's say that there was an invisible part and a visible part of God at the baptism. You still need to address how it proves that Jesus is God the Father. Besides, Trinitarians do believe that there was an invisible part and a visible part at the baptism since they teach one substance. However, I do not see one substance or one person there. I see God speaking to Jesus and that G and J are two beings.
Additionally, you keep bringing up "First and Last" and other titles to prove your arguments. I thought I already addressed these. Anyway, though, I present you with my own synopsis of the names and titles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR_bjzY9GFw&feature
Christian love.
DT, Jesus prayed to the Spirit of God as a man because He walked in our stead. He (His flesh) was made (in the womb of Mary) a little lower than the angels ~ human (Heb 2:9). Read Mat 20:28 and Phil 2:6-8. If we go back to the OT prophecy, we can ponder Ps 110:1, which is fulfilled in Mat 22:44; Luke 20:42-43 and Acts 2:34-35. Also, Ps 45:6 fulfilled in Heb 1:8. We’ve also looked deeper into the meaning of these passages, based on Dan 7; Gen 1:26 and Ps 8:6-8. Jesus made it possible to restore the kingdom of God and man as it was in the beginning.
You will notice all throughout Revelation there is only one Throne. God is both the Father and the Lamb. Whenever you see "God and the Lamb", the Greek word used for ‘and’ is ‘kai’, which means ‘even/also’. He is the same God.
Let’s look at Rev 21:5-7 for instance: “He who was seated on the throne said, ‘I am making everything new!’ Then He said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’ He said to me: ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.”
Let’s now compare WHO gives the drink without cost from the spring of the water of life in John 4:14 “but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." So, He will be our God and we will be His son (sons and daughters)? YES.
These are the words spoken by the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, our LORD, our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Okay, I wrote down a commentary this week on the Living Water. The Living Water is the Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39). God gives it to Yeshua the Messiah who in turns gives it to us (Matthew 28:18 as well as other verses in John indicate God and Messiah are both involved in giving the Holy Spirit). This is why the Holy Spirit can be considered both God's Spirit and Christ's Spirit. God has given it to Jesus so that Jesus may send it to us.
I agree that there is one throne in Heaven. But Jesus takes seat on the throne with the Father.
Revelation 3:21 -
"To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."
Now note: if Jesus and His Father are not two distinct persons or beings here, we cannot sit down with Yeshua on His throne and Yeshua lied unto us!
Now, I'm looking at the word "kai" right now on an online lexicon, and while you are right that it can also mean even/also, it can also read "and" and I believe it is more properly rendered "and". As for Jesus as the "Alpha and Omega", He is the Alpha and Omega of God's creation. In His own distinct way, He is "Alpha and Omega" and "First and Last" just as God is "First and Last" and "Alpha and Omega" in His own distinct way. One refers to status as eternity (God) the other refers to status as the First and Highest created being (Jesus).
I want to ask one more question:
What exactly are you seeing in 1 Timothy 3:15-16 that I am not because I see no evidence based on the context that since "he who" is the correct rendering, that it is proof that Jesus is "God manifested in the flesh"?
Thanks!
Christian love.
DT, Oh if you could truly understand what you've written about the Living Water! The Spirit is like the Water, yes. That Water (God) is poured into the visible image (i.e. a pitcher) = YeHoWsHua, is poured into us. The Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9). I have a hub on this very subject called "The Gospel in a Glass": http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/h
Regarding Rev 3:21: We agree that Jesus was the Son of Man. In the first three chapters of Revelation, He is identifying with His Bride, the Church (seven churches) as He did as the resurrected Christ (Mediator/High Priest). Just as He, as the Son of Man, overcame and sat on the Father's throne (His throne), we (as He) who overcome will sit with Him on His throne (the Father's throne): He is us and we in Him.
Alpha ‘and’ Omega can be rendered any way you want with the word 'kai': Alpha, even the Omega; Alpha, also the Omega, etc. There is only One Alpha and Omega. God (invisible) created all things through Jesus (spoken Word) and visible image (fashioning man from the ground and woman from the man's rib). He even created Michael. Michael existed before the Son of Man (Jesus). Understand the Son of Man was not created or 'made' until He was conceived in Mary’s womb. Because He was conceived by God (the Holy Spirit), it was from that moment on He was called the "Son of God" (Luke 1:35).
Jude speaks about Michael disputing with the Devil over the body of Moses (1:9), and we know the Son of Man/Son of God was not in existence yet. Jesus declares He existed before Abraham as "I AM" (John 8:58), and since there's no copulation in heaven (Mat 22:30), He did not become a 'Father' until the day the "only begotten God/Son" (John 1:18) was born. In the Old Testament He was called the "Father" of Israel, because out of Her He would be born (Ex 4:22; Ps 2:7; Acts 13:33), the ‘firstborn’ of the NEW creation (last Adam) – Col 1:15; 1 Cor 15:45. He was predestined to come and die on the cross as we can see in Rev 13:8 "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." He didn’t die prior to His death at Calvary (Heb 9:26).
You know, it's only the NWT that inserts such a heretical doctrine of Jesus creating all [other] things. The Greek DOES NOT SAY THAT. Jesus created ALL THINGS: John 1:3 "Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made." This includes Himself as the Son of Man/Son of God.
In 1 Tim 3:15-16 do you see the word "Jesus" or "Son"? No. You DO, however, see the word "God"; therefore, "He" in the Greek of vs. 16 refers to God in vs. 15.
It'd be like an English speaker talking about the church of God one moment and then talking about the mystery of the church of God's faith. "He who" could refer to anyone. In this case, it obviously refers to Christ. So I see no evidence. I know the NLT translates "Christ was". So we really cannot build an argument from the context of 1 Timothy 3:15-16 unless we REALLY insist on our own opinions. Now as for Colossians 1:15, I'm not going to claim to be a Greek scholar here, but this works best when one accepts the scriptural truth that Jesus and His Father are two distinct beings. "Pas" does not mean "absolutely everything". God the Father created everything (1 Corinthians 8:6). A good question to ask Trinitarian apologist James White would be "why 'absolutely everything' here but 'absolutely everything except Christ' here". "Pas" can often be used in a collective sense implying a certain amount or certain type. Now the Bible actually never calls Jesus the creator. He is the agency of the creation but not the creator Himself. The creator is the Father. And yes, the spirit of God IS the spirit of the Christ because they both own it. It is God's active force. He gave it to Jesus so that Jesus could give it to us and so that we could be free! :-)
This is getting to be ridiculous babble, DT. You're obviously fighting the Truth that Jesus is none other than the Father God (Spirit) in the flesh. If Jesus Christ (as the Son of God) was manifest in the flesh, then the Son was a pre-existent, lesser god or was begotten (born) before His incarnation, which I have proven to you could not happen. The LORD declares in Is 43:10 "Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." John 1:3 states ALL things were created through Him (the Word, who was/is God) and that's what it means.
If I say "All" my pillows, then that means all my pillows, not all pillows. However, John 1:3 does not distinguish anything less than ALL things, including the flesh of the Son of God. I'm not going to keep listening to your false, twisted Jehovah's Witness doctrine. If you won't receive the Truth, it is your own rejection of it that will be counted against you on the Day of Judgment. There will be no excuse.
I won't be posting any further comments from you on this hub. I do pray your understanding will be opened, as Jesus did for His disciples in Luke 24:45.
DT, if you are sincerely asking questions you would like answered, please feel free to email me at judahsdaughter@gmail.com. I also suggest reading the hub links I've provided to you. We simply will not continue back and forth in a 'debate' here. I will minister to you as God leads me to do, but not to banter.
SirDent Level 4 Commenter 2 years ago
This is a very detailed hub. Confusion comes when we try to understand spiritual things in our carnal minds. This is what causes many to disbelieve in Jesus as being God also. They tell us to let God out of the box, yet they put God in a box and limit Him.
Keep up the good work and fight the good fight of faith.